It Was What It Was : The Football History Podcast

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. This week, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by an extraudinary guest - Clyde Best. An absolute pioneer to the game, born in Bermuda, Clyde would become one of the first black players in First Division football in England. His new film, ‘Transforming the Beautiful Game: The Clyde Best Story’ will be shown for a week at Sadler’s Wells East from 25th March.In this episode, Clyde recounts arriving in England as a teenager, getting lost at West Ham station and being taken in by the Charles family. He reflects on his rise at West Ham, getting his debut against Arsenal under Ron Greenwood in 1969 and playing alongside the likes of Bobby Moore, Geoff Hurst and Martin Peters. Clyde talks of the his Bermuda upbringing, national team breakthrough and the influence that his father had on him. Best reflects on being one of the first prominent black players in English football, enduring racist abuse and an acid-attack threat and playing against Pelé. He also discusses NASL moves to Tampa Bay and Portland Timbers and the inspiration he provided players such as Ian Wright. 01:29 Lost at Heathrow03:23 The Charles Family06:59 Bermuda Beginnings10:20 West Ham Dream13:20 Ron Greenwood Impact15:22 Fast Track Debut18:35 Breaking Barriers24:06 Facing Racism31:03 Scoring Against Pelé35:20 Leaving West Ham for the NASL37:17 American Soccer Showmanship43:01 Legacy as a Pioneer46:57 Honorary Doctorate 49:44 His love for West Ham

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this final part three of our three-part special on Colombian football and the tragedy of Andrés Escobar.Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper tell the story of the 1994 World Cup and its devastating aftermath. This episode explores the immense and impossible pressure placed on the Colombian squad, from death threats delivered to hotel room TVs, to the chaos of a nation in civil war pinning all its hopes on eleven men. The discussion covers the Romania defeat, the fateful own goal against the USA, and the senseless murder of Andrés Escobar outside a nightclub. Rob and Jonathan also examine the legacy of Escobar 'the gentleman of football' and his remarkable fiancée Pamela Cascada, before reflecting on Colombia's long road to recovery and redemption.You can listen to this episode ad-free over on our Patreon - Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was. You will also get access to our World Cup countdown, magazine retrospectives and bonus episodes as well as a monthly Q&A with Rob and Jonathan.01:00 Andrés Escobar's Posthumous Column in El Tiempo01:55 Setting the Scene: The Narco State & Pablo Escobar's Death06:55 Pablo Escobar's Deep Love of Football10:55 Francisco Maturana on the Narcos: "Like an Octopus"16:30 Andrés Escobar: El Caballero del Fútbol20:25 A Move to AC Milan & The Burden of Representing Colombia23:30 Higuita's Exclusion & The President's Calculations26:00 The Romania Defeat: Hagi's Moment of Magic27:45 Death Threats, Kidnappings & Maturana in Tears33:00 The USA Game: Playing Under the Shadow of Snipers35:30 The Own Goal & Colombia's Elimination37:15 The Murder of Andrés Escobar41:00 Who Killed Escobar? The Galón Brothers & the Cover-Up44:45 The State Funeral & Pamela Cascada's Dignity48:15 The Aftermath: Colombia's Slow Road to Redemption51:45 2014 & The Restoration of Colombian Football Pride54:15 Closing Thoughts

In this sneak peek to a bonus episode of It Was What It Was on Patreon, hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by Professor Matthew Brown (University of Bristol) to deepen the series on Andrés Escobar by tracing how Colombian history, political violence and the drug economy intersect with football. Brown rejects Gabriel García Márquez’s claim that three events defined 20th-century Colombia, while explaining why the 5–0 win over Argentina in 1993 became a tipping point for football as a national identity marker. The discussion covers football’s emergence alongside other sporting cultures, the role of sport after the 1948 Bogotazo and during La Violencia, and Colombia’s later shift into guerrilla conflict and cocaine trafficking. They explore cartel money’s social and sporting influence, the effects of Pablo Escobar’s death and subsequent violence, the symbolic damage of Colombia’s 1994 World Cup collapse, Copa América 2001, and how the 2014 team helped build trust during negotiations leading to the 2016 peace deal, while noting ongoing violence tied to the illegal drug trade.You can listen to the full episode on PatreonOn Tuesday, Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson return to round off the Colombia series and bring that story to a close.On Wednesday, on Patreon only, the co-hosts continue the World Cup countdown series with an episode on the 1962 World Cup in Chile, looking back at the tournament and some of its key moments.Then on Friday, also on Patreon only, we look back at when Northern Ireland faced Italy in the 1958 World Cup qualifiers. With Northern Ireland preparing for their 2026 World Cup play-off semi-final against Italy, Rob and Jonathan revisit the meeting where Northern Ireland qualified for their first World Cup and discuss the background to Ireland’s football split in the 1950s.

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this second part two of our three-part special on Colombian football and the tragedy of Andrés Escobar.Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper dissect one of the greatest World Cup qualifying matches ever played: Colombia's stunning 5-0 victory over Argentina at El Monumental in Buenos Aires. This episode explores the dramatic buildup to the match, the hostile reception faced by the Colombian team, and the extraordinary performance that shocked the football world. The discussion then examines the dangerous euphoria that followed, as Colombia began to believe that they could win the 1994 World Cup, and the dark realities of the narco state.You can listen to this episode ad-free over on our Patreon - Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was. You will also get access to our World Cup countdown, magazine retrospectives and bonus episodes as well as a monthly Q&A with Rob and Jonathan.01:39 Colombia's Mindset Before the Match & The Hostile Reception04:07 The Lineup: Colombia vs Argentina at El Monumental11:25 The Match Begins: Early Tension & Argentina's Miss14:05 The Plane Incident: A Bizarre Moment at El Monumental16:01 GOAL: Rincón Opens the Scoring 17:26 Maturana's Psychological Tactics at Half Time18:05 GOAL: Asprilla Makes It 2-018:47 GOAL: Valencia Volleys In the Third19:56 GOAL: Asprilla's Exquisite Curler Makes It 4-021:00 GOAL: Valencia Completes the Rout - 5-022:14 The Monumental Applauds Colombia Off the Pitch24:32 The Celebrations: 100 Deaths & National Hysteria30:55 "Now We're F***ed": The Burden of Expectation33:19 World Champions Before the Tournament Begins39:25 21 Friendlies & The Cash Grab44:51 The Dark Side: Meeting With the Cali Cartel

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. We’ve just hosted our first live Patreon Q&A, where Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson answered questions directly from members, covering football history, stories from the game and much more. Here is a section from the conversation, watch and listen to the full episode only on Patreon.

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this first part of our three-part special on Colombian football and the tragedy of Andrés Escobar.Co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper explore the extraordinary history of Colombian football leading up to the 1994 World Cup. This episode covers the intersection of football and narco-culture, Pablo Escobar's involvement in the sport, the tense rivalry with Argentina, and the dramatic road to qualification culminating in the legendary 5-0 victory at El Monumental. You can listen to this episode ad-free over on our Patreon - Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was. You will also get access to our World Cup countdown, magazine retrospectives and bonus episodes as well as a monthly Q&A with Rob and Jonathan.01:39 The El Dorado League & Early Colombian Football10:11 Francisco Maturana: The Dentist Who Revolutionised Colombian Football19:02 Maturana's Influences: Total Football Meets South American Flair27:43 Navigating Narco-Culture: Pablo Escobar36:11 René Higuita: The Sweeper-Keeper & The Kidnapping41:25 Building Rivalry: Colombia vs Argentina at Copa América 199348:12 World Cup Qualifying Begins: Asprilla's Controversies54:03 The Road to Buenos Aires: Setting Up the Five-Nil

We're on Patreon! As a treat to our loyal listeners, here's a sneak peek of what you'll be getting if you join the "It Was" Patreon community.This week Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by author Bill Buford to round up their series on hooliganism.BONUS EDITIONSExclusive deep dives, specials & extended conversations from one-off specials to extra episodes that expand on our weekly free shows, you’ll get fresh, members-only content - including our “Bonus Editions” strand where Rob and Jonathan go deeper into football’s biggest stories and hidden histories.WORLD CUP WEDNESDAYS!Our countdown to 2026 - every tournament revisited Join Rob and Jonathan as they walk through every World Cup from 1930 to today, exploring the drama, evolution, legends, controversies and cultural impact of each tournament.RETRO MAGAZINE COLLECTIONFlicking through the archives of classic football culture A nostalgic series diving into the pages of Shoot! and other retro football magazines - revisiting the stars, forgotten features, and football fandom of decades past.MONTHLY LIVE Q&A WITH ROB & JONATHANYour chance to ask two of football’s leading writers anything. Submit your questions about recent episodes, football history, their journalism, or upcoming projects — and hear their answers in our LIVE members-only Q&A.JOIN THE IT WAS COMMUNITYConnect with fellow fans & nostalgia lovers Meet other members who share your passion for football history. Be part of the conversation and help shape the future of the show.What’s includedExclusive contentQ&AsAd-free episodesPrivate communityFollow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was

Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this second part of our two-part special on football hooliganism, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper trace the roots of football violence from the 1890s through to its transformation into organised ‘firms’ in the 1960s, 70s and 80s. They discuss the origins of the word ‘hooligan’, early crowd disorder and FA crackdowns, and how post-war prosperity, youth subcultures, away travel and ‘taking ends’ helped create a new kind of fan conflict. The episode also covers the European and England-team flashpoints of the 1970s and 80s, the political and policing response to the Popplewell Report, with later links to post-Hillsborough reforms and why large-scale hooliganism declined.You can listen to this episode ad-free over on our Patreon - Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was. You will also get access to our World Cup countdown, magazine retrospectives and bonus episodes as well as a monthly Q&A with Rob and Jonathan.01:39 Where the Word ‘Hooligan’ Comes From (1890s London)04:03 Football Fever: Mass Crowds and Class Anxiety12:17 What Early ‘Hooliganism’ Looked Like: Pitch Invasions & Crowd Control17:43 Players Under Attack20:25 Fan-on-Fan Violence Emerges & the Rise of Away Travel22:08 Cup Finals, ‘Football Specials’ & Patronising Press Panic27:27 Post-War: The 60s–70s Gangs Are Coming29:02 Teddy Boys, Rock ’n’ Roll Panics & Mods vs Rockers31:02 Merseyside: Away Travel & the Rise of Chanting36:53 Taking Ends: Territory, Undercover Trouble & the New ‘Game’41:58 Europe & England Abroad: From Paris 1975 to Euro 198044:00 1980s Casuals, Designer Gear & Firms Arranging Fights48:43 1985: Luton–Millwall, Heysel, Thatcher & the Popplewell Report51:28 Aftermath: CCTV, ID Schemes & Taylor Report53:50 Global Legacy: Ultras, Copycat Firms & Why Football Identity Endures

Welcome to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this first part of a two-part special on football hooliganism, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by special guest Cass Pennant - former West Ham United Inter City Firm member who later became an author and film producer. They discuss director Ian Stuttard (known as “Butch”) and his 1985 groundbreaking documentary 'Hooligan', which challenged the stereotype of hooligans. Cass explains how Stuttard earned access by spending months with the ICF without a camera, building trust, and later filming from inside the action. The episode also covers the Thatcher-era context, the film’s controversial release and its wider impact on how 'firms' were understood. We finish the episode with Cass reflecting on Stuttard’s wider documentary career, their later partnership in a production company, and Stuttard’s lasting legacy. Join us next week for the history of football hooliganism.You can listen to this episode ad-free over on our Patreon - Follow the link here - or go to Patreon.com and search for It Was What It Was. You will also get access to our World Cup countdown, magazine retrospectives and bonus episodes as well as a monthly Q&A with Rob and Jonathan.00:38 Introducing Cass Pennant and the Documentary03:21 How Ian Stuttard Got Access to the ICF11:08 Trust Test: A Year With No Camera15:28 1985 Context: Thatcher’s Britain, Youth Culture, and Misread ‘Casuals’24:19 Inside the Footage: Street Fighting, Early Video Cameras, and Codes of Conduct26:23 Butch’s War-Correspondent Mindset33:22 Back in the Studio: How ‘Hooligan’ Got Its Unfiltered Authenticity34:02 Pre-Broadcast Panic: Calls to Ban the Film & Fears of Copycats40:18 From Gangs to ‘Firms’45:33 Inside Whitehall: Giving Evidence to the Popplewell Inquiry54:59 Why It Faded: Fans Wanting Out, Politics, Policing & the Premier League Era58:42 Stuttard's Legacy: Funeral Reflections, Final Bucket List Match & Lasting Impact