The Acas Podcast


Susan Clews on navigating coronavirus

In our first episode, Acas Chief Executive Susan Clews shares her key insight into what organisations can do to navigate the challenges that coronavirus presents. We look at building trust, returning to work and communicating in a crisis.

Plus: Susan shares what she has personally learnt about leadership during coronavirus.

For coronavirus workplace advice:

Full Transcript available at


Sarah Guthrie 0:00 

Welcome to the Acas podcast. I'm Sarah Guthrie, part of the communications team at Acas and today I'm talking to Susan Clews, our Chief Executive, about what organizations can do to manage their people, their work, their plans in this difficult time. So Susan, I thought we'd kick off by actually just asking you what kind of issues employers and employees are coming to Acas with at the moment.

Susan Clews 0:25 

All sorts of customers are coming to Acas with a whole range of issues, and they go right from employees who are interested in knowing what their rights are, whether they can get paid, if they're self isolating, or whether they are, you know, kind of quick concerns about their mental health, for example. So we're getting lots of queries to our helpline on those sorts of issues. And we're also hearing from employers too, who are particularly interested about how they keep in touch with workers during the pandemic, and particularly if they've got lots of people working from home. And then increasingly now we've got employers looking at how they can get people back to work safely. And that's a really important issue, obviously, for employees and for employers alike. We're seeing employers, I think, looking at how they can change practices in the workplace. I think it's really, really important here that they work with their employees to look at what the challenges are going to be, and how they can adapt work practices to safely accommodate people back in the office or back in the factory or shop.

Sarah Guthrie 1:35 

Lots of challenging issues there through employers and employees. Thinking about Acas for a moment as an example, and the role of employers and managers as leaders of their organizations.What do you think has been the principle behind your leadership that has really helped in this situation?

Susan Clews 1:54 

I think there's, in all times, it's good if you're open and honest with your people. That's something that's important to me and something I try and live in Acas. But I think during in a time like Coronavirus pandemic, where there is masses of uncertainty, and individuals might be balancing all sorts of different challenges both at home and at work, it's even more important to create a secure and clear place in the workspace so that people know what's expected of them. They know they can trust their senior leaders, and they understand that leaders have their best interests at heart. And so we've been trying to focus very clearly on those people issues, and to tell our people that they really matter to us. And we're doing that more than we've ever done before. So I think the tone of our communication has been clearer and more personal than it has been in the past. And I think that's been a good thing, actually, to really change try and get a more personal relationship with our colleagues through communicating and creating that trust with our people.

Sarah Guthrie 3:09 

Really interesting. You mentioned trust there. This has been a really challenging time and I know from our helpline that trust has been a feature of this crisis - of any crisis. What advice would you give to employers or employees who feel that there's been perhaps a breakdown of trust during this time?

Susan Clews 3:35 

I suppose trust is a scarce commodity isn't it and it's easily lost and can take quite a long time to rebuild. But I'd put a more positive perspective on and say if you're if you're concerned that trust has been eroded during Coronavirus, and that's perfectly understandable if it has been with all of the the challenges and demands placed upon businesses, I think it's about maybe accepting that and being a bit more open about acknowledging that maybe the relationships in the organization aren't where you want them to be. And then to take some really practical steps to rebuild trust. And that looks, to me, that looks like things like being really clear and honest in communication. It's about encouraging two way communication as well, so seeking feedback from your employees and listening to their concerns. I think it's about looking at how you collaborate with people in the business, so how you involve them in maybe planning some of the solutions for the organization and being honest about the challenges that you're facing. And I think those sorts of activities gradually rebuild trust. I don't think there's any one magic wand you can use that's going to instantly get trust back again, but I guess if you're an employee in a business what you're looking for is a really clear statement from your employer about what's important to them. You're looking for that to be backed up by their actions and their ongoing statements. And then you want to know that you're valued as an individual. I think that really helps to rebuild trust as well. So acknowledging the massive commitments and flexibility that people have shown over the last few weeks, all of those things are steps towards rebuilding trust.

Sarah Guthrie 5:32 

And taking that to this issue you mentioned of how we open up workplaces and return to work. Could you perhaps give some advice on what practically that might look like for employers or managers who are thinking about the future months?

Susan Clews 5:50 

Of course, businesses are keen to get back to work, but they want to do that safely. And I think there's something really important about being very clear to your employees to explain that safety is absolutely at the heart of decision making. And then employees understand that your desire to get the business back up and running again, if it's had to limit production or limit its operation, that their safety is going to be at the center of considerations as well as meeting customer needs. So I think there are some really clear messages business can come take to demonstrate to employees that their safety matters, then I think there are some actions that businesses can take to work through carefully the guidance that's been provided. So there's some government guidance on returning to work and safe working that encourages employers to talk to their employees about the challenges and the concerns they have and to seek views of employees about how best to mitigate the risks in the workplace. So involving your employees or your reps if you've got a trade union, your, your reps, workplace representatives, in that risk assessment and being clear with your people what steps you're taking to mitigate the risks, I think will help. So they're the first two steps I would take: making a really clear commitment to health and safety and individuals safety, and then to involve your employees in that process. I think there's also steps employers can take that include things like being really clear how people raise concerns, because even with the best laid plans, things don't always quite go according to plan. And so if an employee has a concern, how do they raise those issues in the workplace, and with who, and being clear that there won't be retaliation to employees if they raise queries about health and safety is important too, because it's all about trying to create that environment of safety, security and trust for employees.

Sarah Guthrie 8:01 

That sounds really valuable advice, which perhaps is sometimes easier to talk about than to do. So as, could you perhaps give employers or managers who are listening to this, some maybe simple steps that they can take away today, they might be thinking, Oh, this is too much. I've got too much to think about, I can't handle this. What are the simple things that they can do that will help their organizations recover in the long run?

Susan Clews 8:32 

That's a great question, Sarah, because it is daunting, isn't it, when we've had such a massive shift to remote working or no working to then think how can we safely get back to work again, so I absolutely understand those concerns. And, and as an employee and myself, I'm thinking through these things for Acas as well. I think just take it a step at a time is probably the best advice and to have a look at the government guidance on safer working and see how that applies to your business, and how you would undertake a risk assessment for your business, and then set out some really clear steps about how you go back, you could go back to work safely. I'd also look at this in a series of steps. So you don''s probably impossible to get straight back to working in the way you did before. So in my organization, we're thinking about how we could reopen our offices, but only for a really small number of people and keep it very small to scale to start with so that we can test out the sort of practices we're putting in place and we're looking at things like how we'd sit, how we'd arrange seating in the office so that people are still socially distance to look at things like the entrances and exit points to make sure we can get people in and out of the building safely, how we'd use lifts in a safe way to maintain distancing and to really look at all those really practical things that happen on the on a day to day basis at work and how you can plan for safety in those areas, obviously some really important issues like PPE and what equipment is necessary for your business. But I think to keep it as simple as possible, look for the really priority actions. And then what we're going to do in our organization will be to think about how do we test some of those plans, maybe with a very small number of employees coming back to work, so that we can learn real time whether those plans were right or not. And then we can change them if they're not quite right as well and learn as we go. So baby steps I think is the best way of this and being open to views feedback from your employees about what's working, and what could be done even better to create a safe working environments as well.

Sarah Guthrie 10:53 

So baby steps and feedback.

Susan Clews 10:56 

Baby steps and feedback will really help with this. There's no one right answer to return to work. And I think they're, they're are two principles that will help organizations get back to work.

Sarah Guthrie 11:08 

Well, thank you very much, Susan, that's been fascinating for me. And for our listeners, I'm sure. Is there anything else you would like to say as a parting shot that you have learned through this crisis yourself that you would like to share?

Susan Clews 11:24 

I think probably the, the biggest learning point for me during the crisis has just been to see how adaptive people can be. And if you give some elements of empowerment to individuals, and you encourage people to work up solutions, just how powerful that can be. And that is something that I've been particularly heartened by in my own organization, seeing how people have applied their skills and enthusiasm to work in new ways to meet the new challenges, and I think that's something I want to build on for the future, so we continue to capture the enthusiasm, the goodwill, the creativity of our people for the long term, as well as the crisis of Coronavirus, because I think if we can do that, that means we're just going to be a stronger and more capable organization in the future. I think the other thing I've learned, Sarah, with all of this is that it often does seem difficult. And as a leader, you feel the kind of burden and responsibility to solve everything within your organization solve all these challenging problems. But of course, I've realized that you're never alone as the leader or as a manager, and there are people there to help either within your organization or outside of that. And I think that's where Acas can come in to support a whole range of businesses really, whether it's with particular questions about what the law says, whether it's a sounding board for how the company is adapting its working practices, or to talk about issues like trust working with employees, dealing with those practical challenges of home working, or something like helping support employees with mental health. We're there to help business of any shape and size. So do ask for help if we can support you in any way.

Sarah Guthrie 13:24 

Well, on that note, Susan, thank you so much for joining me today to share your advice and insight into how employees and managers can handle this really difficult time. You can find more information about Acas and the help and advice that we offer at If you have any comments or topics that you'd like us to cover next, then feel free to email All of those details plus more useful links will be in the session notes for this episode. Thank you for listening.

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Thinking differently about neurodiversity

Whether or not you’re up to date with the language aroundneurodiversity, ADHD, autism, dyslexia and other terminology, most workplaces include people who think differently, and who might be part of a neurominority. To help us demystify neurodiversity and get proactive, we’re joined by Dr Nancy Doyle, CEO and founder of Genius Within, Adrian Ward, Head of Disability Partnerships at the Business Disability Forum and Erin Fulton-McAlister, Acas workplace adviser. We look at:What neurodiversity isWhy we need to pay attention to itCreating a workplace that celebrates and capitalises on neurodiversityEpisode resourcesAcas neurodiversity guidanceBDF & Genius Within Commissioning framework and how to commission guideContact an Acas adviserfor a free advisory conversation Related Acas podcast - disabilityOrganisations:AcasBusiness Disability ForumGenius WithinTranscript SarahGuthrieWelcome to the Acas Podcast. I'm Sarah Guthrie and today we're focusing on neurodiversity. What is it, why it matters in the workplace, and how workplaces can support neurodiversity in meaningful and practical ways. I'm joined by Dr. Nancy Doyle, Chief Exec and founder of Genius Within, which provides evidence-based neurodiversity inclusion, Adrian Ward, head of disability partnerships at the Business Disability Forum, which brings together business government and disabled people to create a disability smart world and Erin Fulton-McAlister, workplace advisor at Acas. Thanks for joining me today.Adrian Ward, Erin Fulton-McAlister and Dr NancyDoyleNo problem.SarahSo there's lots of different language around neurodiversity and the language shifts a lot, which we've all discussed actually in the past. And I, I wondered if we could start with that in mind. Very simply, what is it that we're talking about when we use words like neurodiversity? Nancy, do you want to kick us off?NancyI do. Yeah. Thank you. So I think, broadly speaking, the word neurodiversity relates to the idea that we are all diverse, that there is cognitive diversity in the strengths and weaknesses of the human species. Some of us are good at most things. Some of us are good at specialist things to the exclusion of other things. And we have this kind of range of what's possible in our human thinking and skill and ability profile. And sometimes the word neurodiversity gets used as a proxy for a handful of conditions that are often known by other titles as well, such as neurodevelopmental disorders, hidden disabilities, specific learning disabilities. My working title for those at the moment is neurominorities, because they are less likely than being a neurotypical. So if you are a neurotypical, it means that broadly speaking, you're competent in all areas of thinking, you know, you're kind of average in all areas of thinking, or maybe you're above average. If you are in a neurominority, it means you have some specialist thinking skills and some specific difficulties. And that includes ADHD, autism, dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia, dysgraphia. And those are the main inclusions. We sometimes also include tic disorders such as Tourette's, we sometimes also include mental health and chronic neurological conditions. Because like the others, what happens when you have those conditions, is you end up with a big difference between your skills and your weaknesses. So because of the weaknesses, neurominorities are typically covered by Equality Act protection and disability legislation worldwide. But it's important to remember that those conditions come with strengths as well.SarahThanks, Nancy. That's a really kind of holistic introduction. What struck me when you were talking is that this is an umbrella term, it is in itself diverse. And I wondered, how does that diversity of the difference between ADHD and dyslexia affect how people identify with and see this as something that they need to think about?NancySo concepts like autism, ADHD, and dyslexia are very much diagnoses of exclusion. They're things that we decide people have when we've exhausted all possible other explanations for difficulties in scale or behavior. And actually, the science of those categories is moving on incredibly quickly at the moment. And there are some evidence from neuroimaging studies, that actually that the kind of brain differences are not that great, and that those conditions have more in common than they do have separate and actually what we currently call a diagnosis of dyspraxia or dyslexia might really be a symptom cluster. And, and from my own professional practice working with thousands of neurominorities over the last few decades, I would say that people come to the workplace with very similar problems. So 92% of my clients, no matter which label or brand they are associated with, 92% of them struggle with memory and concentration. 82% struggle with organisation, 78% with time and 67% with communication skills, and I've run this study over thousands of thousands of participants, and it's always about those numbers. So I think from a business perspective, what's more useful, rather than trying to think, "Autistic people will need this" or "Dyslexic people will need that" or, you know, or even to think that an autistic person doesn't have dyslexic symptoms or that an ADHD person isn't also slightly dyspraxic. So instead of getting hung up over labels, what's more important is just to say, "How can I support you to work at your best? What are the things that you're doing really well? What are the things that you're struggling with? What kind of reasonable adjustments what we might be put in, to scaffold you and augment you and to enable you to really thrive in the workplace?" And we can ask that question without detailed descriptions of conditions, and what may or may not be happening in the brain.AdrianYeah, I mean, just to jump on the back of what Nancy said there in complete agreement. And it's a lot of the work we do, with the organisations that we work with, is actually trying to change that culture of either trying to get a diagnosis or trying to pigeonhole or label people into either particular roles or particular solutions for those individuals. And, and actually encouraging them to think more about barriers that they might be encountering, how to remove those barriers, the support that an individual might require, etc etc. So really flipping the thought process from not trying to label and pigeonhole to actually just ask what does an individual need to be able to flourish in the role that they're in?ErinYeah, I completely agree. And I think that, from an Acas point of view, a lot of what we're going to be talking about is really just good management. And it's about supporting people as individuals, rather than because they have a label.NancyAnd there is a tricky balance in this because, you know, when we go a little bit wide of "This affects everybody, everybody is neuro diverse neuro diversity of everybody. It's about asking all individuals and good management," which I 100% endorse. And I think people could get very tied up worrying about whether they're doing the right thing or not. And actually, if they were just doing good management, it would probably be okay. But what we do have to remember with neurodiversity and neurominorities, is that a lot of the time, these are disabling conditions. And somebody said to me, once, "Well, we all have difficulty concentrating sometimes." And I said, "What you've just said, to me, as a woman with ADHD, is the equivalent of me saying to you, as a woman using a wheelchair, we all have trouble walking sometimes." There are statistically significant differences in people's skill levels. That means the things that we do as managers - our legal obligations - they're not nice to have, they are good management, but they are also legal obligations. And when we don't do them, we are not creating the level playing field that we want to create for all our employees. So they're not preferences, their requirements. And the kind of things that I would draw attention to are things like, you know, allowing people to not abide by a hot desking policy, if you are very easily distracted, or you know, have that kind of high sensory awareness that comes with autism, you might find there's a certain point in the office where it's quiet enough for you to focus and concentrate. And you might simply be unable to do that, unless you're at that point in the office. So an organization might allow you to choose your desks, they might allow you to work from home more frequently, they might allow you to book out a meeting room, if you had to do a report that you were really concentrating on or wear earphones to cut out background noise. So there's, there's lots of things people can do. And they might look like preferences. But it's the difference between functioning and not functioning, as opposed to being a little bit annoyed and being a little bit, you know, okay.SarahSo there's a very clear difference in severity, almost?NancyYeah, yeah. Yeah, people aren't choosing to stop concentrating, people aren't choosingto take longer over typo checking and writing and reading through edits, they're not doing that deliberately. It's not because they're...they haven't got a moral character deficit, it's not that they need to try harder or shape up or put a bit more effort in, it's that the parts of the brain do those particular functions aren't as well connected or don't work as well, or are too busy processing a whole load of other information that's coming in from the rest of the environment. So it's really important that people know that there are observable, measurable, definite brain differences. That means certain jobs are easy, and certain jobs are hard. And when we assign words like "prefer" or "try" or you know, "work a bit harder" around the things that people are deficient in, you know, it's like telling somebody who's deaf to listen harder.SarahAnd this might be quite an obvious question, because I feel like you're all bringing up elements of it anyway. But I wondered, Adrian, when you're talking to businesses about this topic, what do you say when they ask you, "Well, why do we need to focus on this?"AdrianYeah, and it does definitely come up as a as a question. It's difficult. In this world, when you work in this world, it becomes very glib just to come back with a, "Well, why wouldn't you?" kind of respond to that. I know that's not necessarily always helpful to get the right engagement. But one of the things I always say to an organization, you know, if you're truly committed to inclusion, you should be looking at how you attract, recruit, retain, and develop neurodiverse talent within your organization. So my biggest sort of push back and biggest sort of line I'll take with an organization is about tapping into the widest pool of talent you possibly can do. And if people need more information around that, and you know, I talk to people about actually, how health it is for an organization to have a workforce that has a real diverse range of thinking. So where people do think differently to others within the organization, where creative thinking is really encouraged and fostered and allowed to flourish within an organization, how some people are very solution focused and great problem solvers. Again, why wouldn't you want people with those sorts of skills within your organization, people that can massively grasp complex concepts very quickly? Again, why would you not want people with those sorts of skills within your organization. So it's trying to help organizations just think, wider than perhaps some of the stereotypes, some of the myths, some of those sort of .pigeon holed views.ErinThe other thing to bear in mind here is that the law says you have to. Being neurodivergent will usually amount to a disability under the Equality Act 2010. And this means that organizations have a legal obligation to make reasonable adjustments to the workplace, and to the individual's role that will remove or minimize any disadvantage to that individual. So, yes, it is important from a legal point of view. And there are really potentially huge consequences if you ignore that point of view. But it's not only as Adrian's already said that there's a threat if you don't do it. There are huge advantages to your organization's if you do do it.SarahSo it's good for your business for your organization, and there's a legal obligation. How do you do that, then? What do you think are the main barriers for organizations? And how can we overcome them to create a workplace, which does help people thrive to their fullest potential?NancyI think that the majority of workplaces are reluctant to be flexible and change. And we've got to get a bit more creative about how we organize work. So you know, most office spaces, for example, are organized around the idea that clocks needed to be adjacent to paper ledgers. Because that's when they were invented in the sort of 1800s. And, actually, that's not really true in a remote working world. And we all know that now, because we've all just lived through the COVID-19 pandemic, or are still living through should I say., So there's a whole bunch of norms that we have assumed are reasonable. And so because we've designed our workplaces around those norms, that's where we're creating disability. We've assumed that all humans, in order to have value, must be able to spell and read efficiently, must be able to operate fine motor control devices, must be able to sit still and concentrate for hours at a time, and must be able to think well in busy, loud environments. And when you think about human evolution, and those particular characteristics of human behavior, they're actually not very typical at all. It's a bit weird! And as our workplaces continue to evolve and progress into the future of work, what we need to do is start designing work around the skills that we need, rather than the things that we're used to because we've always done them that way. So we can start with this idea of changing our systems and being systemically inclusive, and then personalized to what an individual needs. But whereas at the moment, what's happening is we don't think that we have to change our environments at all. And we're putting a lot of energy and effort into making an individual able to cope with it, but actually the environment might not be suitable for the workplace at all. I'd like to see in 20 years time whether we still need to sit still to concentrate at all. You know, will people that need to sit still have sedentary dependent concentration disorder instead of people that like to move having ADHD? You know, we could flip all of this on its head. Will people that only like to communicate using literacy rather than video communication be called hyperlexic dependent syndromes, you know? [Laughs] There's lots of ways we could flip this, but it's about I think, just really thinking about the work that you want and the performance that you need, and designing your jobs and environment around the output rather than the inputAdrianFor us and how we work organizations, we look across that kind of complete employee journey or life cycle and talk with organizations about whole range of things,but things like from the attraction candidates, making sure that recruitment processes are barrier free and as inclusive as possible. And then we will work with organizations around what are they doing that actually retains that talent once you've recruited them? So have you got that onboarding process right? Is it easy to get adjustments, and Nancy touched on the built environment. And one of my sort of big bugbears is around progression and development. I've certainly seen a tendency of actually the focus being on attracting candidates, getting candidates into roles, but then not necessarily really thinking about actually how they are developed and progress within that organization. So there's a whole range of areas that an organization should be thinking. But if they think about that employee lifecycle, from the point that they're attracted to make an application all the way through to how they can then flourish and progress within that organization, they're areas that we'd really encourage organizations to focus on.ErinAn example that I've come across is an organization who had an applicant who declared that they were autistic and requested that the panel avoid hypothetical questions. Now, I know that's one of the very common ones. But this organization decided that they would not do it for just that individual, they would do it for everybody in that recruitment round. And they, they did things like give all of the candidates the questions that they were going to ask 20 minutes before the interview itself, to give them an opportunity to think about their best examples, not just the first thing that comes to their head. They did an exercise in which they gave somebody a scenario that related to the job that they would be doing and asked them about that situation, and whether it was something that experienced before - which I realise sounds hypothetical, but in the situation wasn't. And what they found was that that recruitment process worked significantly better at getting good people in than their previous one had done. And actually, they've adopted that for all recruitment going forward across the entire organization.NancyJust wanted to come in on the point of kind of how do you know what you should be doing and trying this and asking people what they need, and having lists of things that you can try. And, and I see, you know, this is a big ongoing learning, and the big grey area in this is what is a reasonable adjustment? So we know that there are lots of things that you can do as adjustments, and not all of them will be reasonable for your organization to put in and where is that boundary of reasonable? And one of the things that I'm seeing a lot of at the moment, which I find really concerning, is where people are going for that advice. I worked with an assistive technology expert Neil Milliken and the Business Disability Forum to write a commissioning framework for commissioning neuro diversity inclusion services. Because it's a bit of a minefield! Do you need a psychologist, a mental health nurse, a professional coach, a teacher and educator, you know who's got the professional expertise in this field? It's really difficult. So we put together a commissioning framework, which kind of enables you to go through the main issues of risk, safeguarding, insurance, training, credibility, and work out whether - for the size of the project you've got or the you know, the need that you have in your organization - whether you're commissioning the right people. It's a really helpful resource. The BDF and Acas both provide excellent resources in this respect. It's about going for advice to people that can give you credible advice based on a wide range of experience and professional training, as opposed to their own anecdotal case study of one.SarahThank you, Nancy. And we will put a link to that in the episode notes for this episode. I think it's available for free for two weeks. So if you're listening to this, grab it while it's available. We've been talking a lot about what we can do now. But I'm very curious to know what you think we should be doing in the future. Where would you love to see us, the workplace, the future of the workplace move on this topic?NancySo I think where we're headed is universal design, systemic inclusion, I think we're still stuck in compliance based inclusion. So we're waiting for people to fail and then we're buffering around them. We've got quite a lot of token inclusion where we're bringing in groups of people that have specific conditions for specific skills, like autistic coders, which is sadly lacking ntersectional wisdom and tends to kind of repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat the same type of person. It's not really where we should be headed. The idea of systemic inclusion, where it's just the way things are done around here. So all of the things that my two colleagues on this call have said about kind of reviewing your policies, reviewing your structures, you know, really thinking about the the eventual eventual design, where we need to be headed is where this isn't a thing anymore. Where we don't have a diversity and inclusion team where, where disability support is part of the typical HR functionality. The kind of things you need, you can order from a stationary order, or are built into the training development program. And if you think about the prevalence, one of the things we've done looking at our cohorts over the last decade is notice that a sizeable proportion of our clients come to us for help when they're promoted. So it's on promotion, when all of a sudden their job role changes a little bit, or they have to do slightly different things, that's when they need adjustments and support. So rather than wait for people to fail, why don't we just say, "Okay, so as part of our new manager onboarding, we know that for about 15 to 20% of people, they're going to need extra support in these areas. So we built this into our manager onboarding, so on as our manager onboarding courses start, here's the specific ones around managing concentration time, here's your additional literacy resources from the assistive technology suite. Off you go."SarahThank you. Adrian.AdrianSo I think there's a, I'm sensing, I think there is a real opportunity to build on some of the momentum that appears to be there at the moment. It's about actually, how do we harness this real thirst for knowledge and information that's there at the moment, and keep that conversation going and evolving as much as we possibly can? And then my final sort of comment is that - perhaps it's more of a question than a comment. But I just wonder whether COVID and the pandemic and how that's changed how we work, whether that could or should create new and better opportunities moving forward.ErinSo I think what I would like to see would be, organizations get to a point where individuals feel confident in asking for support because of what they are seeing, because they believe that the organization really will be flexible and provide the adjustments that they need, without any kind of disadvantage to those individuals. I'd like to see line managers feel confident in providing that support and in having those conversations with members of their team. And not as a one off, but as an ongoing conversation and ongoing support. I would like to see colleagues within those teams get to a point where they feel that seeing their colleagues doing things differently, or perhaps being managed differently, is a sign of good management and a sign that they can ask for support if they need it as well, rather than unfair treatment. And ultimately, I'd like to see that organizations and individuals together will, through doing these sorts of things, reap the benefits of diversity.SarahThank you. That is a brilliant note to end on, which I am reluctant to do, as there's clearly more to discuss here. We've touched on some really big questions about the whole nature of work and how we design it. And that as well as we've been going big, we've also had some really good principles and insights like not getting hung up on labels, rethinking your systems and your policies, redesigning them, getting expert advice, and not relying on stereotypes or lived experience inappropriately. It's been a fascinating podcast. So Adrian, Nancy and Erin, thank you. This has been the Acas Podcast, I've put links to helpful resources on neurodiversity, including the neurodiversity commissioning framework that Nancy mentioned, which is available for free for two weeks. And we've also put some links to advice. If you're looking for bespoke support to help you increase your diversity and inclusion than Acas also offers free chats with advisors. If that's of interest to you, then I've put a link to the number and the contact form in the notes as well. Thanks for listening.