The Acas Podcast
LGBTI+: pride and support at work
Do all employers take pride in their people? In this episode we focus on the importance of organisations supporting their LGBTI+ communities and what practical steps they can take to be a more diverse and inclusive workplace.We are joined by Lucie Garvin, Deputy Chair of the Acas LGBTI+ & Allies staff network; Tom Price who is the Senior Leader Champion for the Acas LGBTI+ & Allies staff network and Emma Dunn, Chair of a:gender, the cross-government network supporting trans and intersex staff across government. We discuss:·Issues affecting LGBTI+ people at work·How to set up an LGBTI+ & Allies staff network·Celebrating Pride and continued LGBTI+ support Episode resources:Advice and guidance on how to improve equality, diversity and inclusion in your workplace: https://www.acas.org.uk/improving-equality-diversity-and-inclusionDownload our free equality, diversity and inclusion policy template: https://www.acas.org.uk/equality-policy-templateEmma Dunn’s blog on the Equality Act 2010: https://www.acas.org.uk/the-equality-act-2010-agender-and-meLucie Garvin’s blog on how Acas relaunched it’s LGBTI+ & Allies staff network: https://www.acas.org.uk/lucie-garvin-our-network-is-helping-to-make-lgbt-history-at-acas-0Read the findings from research conducted by the Institute for Employment Studies (IES) on supporting trans employees in the workplace: https://www.acas.org.uk/supporting-trans-employees-in-the-workplaceTo contact an Acas adviser for specialist support,get in touchTranscriptChau Doan Welcome to the Acas podcast. I'm Chau Doan and today we will be discussing how we can support the LGBTI+ community within the workplace. I'm joined today by Lucie Garvin, Deputy Chair of the Acas LGBTI+ & Allies staff network; Tom Price, who is the Senior Leader Champion for the LGBTI+ & Allies staff network and Emma Dunn, Chair of a:gender the cross government network supporting trans and intersex staff across government. Thank you everyone for joining me today.Emma Dunn Hello. Lucie Garvin Hello. Tom Price Hi Chau. Chau So with many Pride events and activities being either cancelled or postponed this year due to the coronavirus pandemic, today, we will be talking about how employers and organisations can support and celebrate their LGBTI+ staff at work during this challenging and unprecedented time. And also what steps they can take to make themselves a more diverse and inclusive workplace, especially employers who might have little experience or resources to do so. Although the LGBTI+ community has come a long way in terms of gaining equal rights, especially in the workplace, we know that there's still a further way to go. So let me start off first by asking, in terms of individuals who identifies themselves as trans, what can employers do to support any staff who might be transitioning or have transitioned? Emma, how could they make sure that individual’s confidentiality is protected during that period of time?Emma Well, the legislation exists, the gender recognition act that actually says that it is an offence for somebody who has in the course of their official duties come to a recognising and or an understanding of somebody else's being transgender, it's actually an offence to disclose that information to a third party. So it's really important that is understood throughout all organisations, people have to understand that, somebody's gender history, somebody status as having a transgender past or their intentions to undergo transition is an intensely personal thing. And it's not just about the personal nature of who they are at their core, it's about trans people always get asked, and intersex people always get asked those really kind of icky personal questions. And it's sort of things about what surgeries they might want, or what their genitals are, and that sort of stuff is really, really inappropriate. So where managers can create an environment and demonstrate an understanding of the need to have those really kinds of completely confidential conversations, and also the kinds of conversations where the manager isn't squirming, and they're not being embarrassed about the kind of information that might be being disclosed to them. That can be hugely beneficial in helping trans people to be themselves and to actually be honest about what they might need in terms of support in the workplace. Yes, confidentiality really is key.Chau So it's about creating a confident and secure environment for their staff to come out for that. Have you seen any examples of that within any companies or organisations at all?Emma Well absolutely, I mean from my own circumstances. So I work at the civil service and within my own agency obviously. So I'm intersex and I was diagnosed as intersex. Well, I was diagnosed at age 14, actually, but the diagnosis was withheld from me. And I didn't come to an understanding of myself, being intersex or I didn't have confirmation from the medical specialists that I was intersex until I was in my early 20s. And at that stage, I was already a civil servant. And for many, many years, I carried a great deal of shame and stigma. And it wasn't until I actually had a line manager, who demonstrated their inclusive values, who demonstrated their understanding of the need for confidentiality, that I felt able to actually come out and be open about who I was and what my circumstances were. And that was just a huge relief for me. And what that did was it really enabled me to actually give much, much more in terms of my commitment to that organisation. Because I wasn't expending all of that mental time and energy hiding who I was and what I was going through, I could actually be really open and honest. And my manager was able to respond to that. So on days where I had really bad reactions to the hormones that I was taking, my manager said that I could have a laptop so that I could work from home. And you know, this was back in the day when we didn't all have laptops, and we weren't all working from home. So that was a huge benefit to me. And it meant that my sick records improved, that I was able to contribute more to my team, that kind of thing was really, really helpful. And I knew that I was in safe hands with that manager, I knew that other people who might show a kind of prurient interest in what might be the circumstances behind why I might be working from home, that manager was going to be really clear and explicit that it was nobody else's business. It was it was between me and them, and they knew what was happening. And that was that was good enough. So having that real confidence, I think as a manager that you can support that person really helps.Chau So would you say that the great situation would be to build that great element of trust between employers and also their LGBTI+ staff? To create that open and honest environment for them to be in, but also to help them potentially come to their employers with any problems or concerns they might have.Emma Yes. Yes, absolutely building trust. And we've talked about it like it's a really simple thing. But of course, it's an incredibly complicated process. It's not something that can be done overnight. And it is, I think for me about kind of really being clear about what your values are as an organisation and as a manager, and living that, role modelling that, demonstrating that so that people can really see you're not just talking the talk, you're walking the walk. And where you're doing that people will open up to you, they will tell you what you need to hear about the circumstances that they're going through or the issues that they're facing, if they are experiencing bullying, harassment, discrimination; they will feel much more confident in kind of surfacing those tensions, telling you what the issues are. So yes, walk the walk, if you're a manager. If you’re an organisation walk the walk and show people that you care about them.Chau Emma has mentioned about the challenges and difficulties that trans and intersex staff might be facing. So Lucie, can I ask you what are the other challenges that LGBTI+ staff might be facing in the workplace as well?Lucie I guess there's the discrimination side of things, which is perhaps a more extreme side. So individuals might be discriminated against, because of their sexual orientation, or their gender identity. There's perhaps more subtle side of things, challenges that LGBTI+ people might face as well. And that's perhaps the challenge of whether they're out or not. And when if somebody isn't out at work, then that can that can affect them in lots of different ways. It might affect their mental wellbeing. And that might have a knock-on effect for their productivity as well, because they feel perhaps that they're constantly trying to hide something about themselves that's really important. So maybe not being able to bring their full selves to work can have big impact as well.Chau So if that's the case, then what would you say to someone who would like to encourage that open and honest conversation with their staff then? If they're having difficulties to encourage their staff to do so?Lucie Yes, that's a good question. I think having good policies, having clearer policies that are inclusive of everybody, using inclusive language, something that speaks to everybody, gender neutral language can be super helpful. So what I mean by that is, I guess, for example, with our policies, we've worked through them to make sure that they're gender neutral. And we use the kind of members of staff, the employee, the manager say them perhaps rather than using she/her or he/him, talking about members of staff or members of management for example. Training is also really important to making sure everybody feels included in the workplace and can be their true selves. And this is training on inclusivity and diversity, and it's kind of regular training as well. So it's not necessarily just a tick box exercise, it's doing varied training regularly, can kind of help those folks feel able to be themselves at work. Chau Thanks Lucie. You've mentioned about policies and training that employers can put into place to help their staff. And Tom, I know you're the senior leader champion for the LGBTI+ & Allies staff network, what would be the benefit for an organisation to set up a network if they haven't done so already?Tom Well, I think one of the principal benefits is effectively making sure that your colleagues feel they have a voice and that the organisation is listening to them. I mean, Lucie's mentioned the importance of taking action. I think that's really important. I think it's really important that organisations take action, listen to staff and take action, even if it's not about issues on the scale of inappropriate behaviour. You know, it's great to have a strong organisational narrative around inclusion. But to be effective, it really has to lead to action. And a staff network is a great way of prompting an organisation to change things, and to do things differently. To explore different ways of doing things that really support LGBTI+ staff.Chau What would you say to an organisation who feels that they don't need to set up an LGBTI+ staff network? So if they felt that they're inclusive already. Or if they believe that they don't have any LGBTI+ staff in their workplace. Tom I mean, I think I'd really challenge them to think about whether or not they really are listening to their staff. I mean, I think it's easy for people to kind of assume that they have a good relationship with their staff, that they have open conversations in the workplace. But I think that a lot of people from straight cisgender backgrounds like me, can really struggle to get to grips sometimes with the issues that are tremendously important to those staff. And actually creating a network so that you can have a space where people can tell you about their experiences, can tell you about the challenges they face in the workplace can be a really helpful way of expanding that conversation. And building kind of relationships, I guess of trust, consistency and accountability, effectively the cornerstones of effective allyship. Yes, I would strongly encourage organisations to set out to explore setting up staff networks, if they can.Chau So if they don't have a network set up already as such, so for example if they are a small organisation just started out. How would they be able to go about that, Lucie?Lucie Yes, a good place to start is finding enthusiastic volunteers. So there may be somebody in the workplace, they might not necessarily identify as LGBTI+, they may be an ally. An enthusiastic ally, who wants to take some steps to set up a network or community. Get buy in from the top of the organisation, even a small organisation. If it's supported right at the top of management, then it can really help that community and network start up properly. And kind of invest in those volunteers. So if senior management or management at any level can give time to those individuals, or that person to make sure that they can set it up fully and they've got time maybe away from their day to day work in just a little bit of time away from the day to day work to do that. That can be really, really helpful.Chau Thanks Lucie. We know that staff networks can provide a lot of support and help. And some of the things that they do include setting up events and activities for their members. I’m wondering with the impact of the pandemic and with many in-person events such as LGBTI+ History Month and Pride being either cancelled or postponed this year. What are the things that you're doing Emma in your own organisation to celebrate instead?Emma Thanks Chau. Yes, we found that the lack of sort of physical in person pride events has actually had a really significant impact on our members, who really tell us how much they value the opportunity to actually go out and be in a safe space with other people like them. To be outside, to be proud of who they are, to be open, to be vocal. So yes, they've really struggled with the lack of actual physical in person events. One of the things that our network has done in collaboration with the civil service LGBT+ network is that we have set a series of pride events online so that people can still feel that they have those connections to each other, and they can still celebrate who they are. And they can still have those conversations with other people who recognise the issues where they don't have to start from square one explaining what's going on. And something that we've done specifically within a:gender, and this was as a result of the pandemic hitting is that we actually introduced at that stage an online social meetings. So every Thursday night we all gather together, we have in jokes, we have a silly quiz, where we give out prizes, and it's just an hour of nonsense. The rule is that you get bonus points, if you appear on camera with a pet or a child. And you have to have a quarantini which is an alcoholic or a non-alcoholic drink, maybe whatever you have in your cupboard in lockdown. And we just have an hour actually just celebrating each other, making those connections. And obviously over pride, you know we've had rainbow themed quizzes, we've got people dressing up, we've had pride specific quizzes. So that's been a really huge bonus for our members in that it has still given them the opportunity to kind of celebrate themselves, celebrate who they are, meet with other people who are like them, and it's really benefited their mental health. So I think for organisations, recognise and leverage the power of hybrid working. If everybody in your organisation is able to access online video conferencing, think about giving them the time and giving them the resources to put on events like that, because it really can help people, their mental health and their wellbeing to feel connected to each other, especially during pride.Chau Would you say that by doing it continually as such, so rather than just doing a one-off event for Pride, it will be a benefit to organisations to support their LGBTI+ networks going forward?Emma Absolutely, 100%. I think it took a pandemic, for us to realise the power of holding those meetings. And as I say, when we've gone through Christmas, and we've gone through Easter and we've gone through Pride, and we've had all sorts of themed events throughout the year. And it took that for us to realise actually how powerful that was and how necessary it was and how it shouldn't and it can't just be a one off thing. And we're really lucky, a lot of our members tell us that their workplaces actually regard this as being so important to their mental health that they're actually allowed to attend that hours meeting each week. On the clock, that actually it can be considered to be part of their working day. But yes, where organisations can actually set something like that up and actually give people the time to attend and give people the resources to attend, the payoff is just threefold, fourfold. It's incredible.Chau Emma has just mentioned about the mental health of LGBTI+ staff, so Lucie if someone is struggling with their mental health during that period of time, what access to support can they go to? Or is there something that the employer could refer them to get help with that?Lucie Employers large and small, I mean the individual might be best placed to have chat with their own GP, their own doctor might be able to help and signpost as well, if they're struggling and sometimes talking to a professional can be really, really helpful. But there are lots of organisations out there that can provide mental health support. Employers might also have an employee assistance programme, which may have access to a helpline that might allow them to call up anytime of the day, any day of the year, and have a conversation with somebody who's professionally trained. Again, it might be an area where staff networks can assist as well. A staff network might have some really good ties and links up with local organisations or national organisations. And an individual who might be struggling, it's another benefit of having a network or a community within the workplace. You know, having somewhere that people can go to and say look "I'm struggling, not for them to give the professional help, but a signpost, a place somebody feels comfortable to go there, I think I need a little bit of help at the moment. Do you know anybody?" And the network can perhaps provide that signpost on as well. Acas also has some really good examples. We've got mental health first aiders, individuals who have been trained to deal with kind of immediate issues as well as the signpost in on longer term options for people who might be struggling. So kind of invest in that training for your people, no matter how big you are, whether your large employer or small employer, whether it's one person or several people in different offices. When folks know that there is somebody there that they can turn to, not just maybe a line manager or a colleague, that can be really beneficial as well.Chau Tom, in terms of getting senior leaders on board with supporting their LGBTI+ staff, so if there is an allies staff network for them to join, how can they encourage the senior leaders to do that? So if they're actually hesitant to do so?Tom Well, I think the key thing and the sort of the theme through I guess my contribution to the podcast is really around action and people being seen to take action. And I think that's one of the perhaps the principal motivations for senior leaders to join a staff network is that it's demonstrating that they are not just paying lip service to the need for diversity and inclusion within their organisations. That they are committed to ensuring that they are part of those open conversations that our staff network fosters. And I think that staff network can be a great way of learning. You know, I think that if you're particularly with LGBTI+ colleagues, if you're if you're straight, if you're cisgender, actually taking some time to listen to the experiences of the members of staff network, and to learn from them and to understand what challenges they face in the workplace can be tremendously beneficial. And I think that yes absolutely, that would be a huge benefit for any member of a senior leadership team who's thinking about joining a network.Chau Would you say then, even if someone doesn't identify themselves as part of the LGBTI+ community, it will still be a benefit for them to join an allies network?Tom Absolutely. I mean as I said before, I'm a straight cisgender man, but I volunteer to be the senior champion, because I firmly believe that ensuring our LGBTI+ colleagues feel valued and able to be the full selves at work is a responsibility of everyone in an organisation. It's not just something that falls to members of the LGBTI+ community. And it's really important that senior leaders role model that. That they understand how they can aspire to be an effective ally, and that they show other people in the organisation that this is something that's personally important to them. You know, I think that I found it tremendously rewarding. I think that I have had the opportunity to interact with some amazing colleagues and some really incredible colleagues who have a whole world of kind of experienced, that they've been kind enough to share with me. I think that yes, learning to be an effective ally has been a real journey for me. I mean, to be honest I think that I've participated in conversations about allyship, I've been to training sessions. But until I started in the role as the senior champion, I guess I've really had to learn how to try and practice that allyship, how to really aspire to be that effective ally. And I think fundamentally, one thing I'm really committed to is driving positive change in the organisation and being able to do that on behalf of the LGBTI+ network, be able to effectively amplify their voices, to use my privilege on their behalf is, I mean fundamentally it's got to be a good thing to do. It's the right thing to do.Chau If someone is listening to this podcast today, what's the one thing they should start doing, say for example tomorrow, if they wish to include an LGBTI+ community within their organisation? Or if they wish to support that?Tom I think the idea of setting of seeing whether or not there's interest in setting up a staff network is a really powerful one. I mean critically, I think the important thing is listening to your staff. Finding a way of listening to your staff, and when they tell you things take action.Emma Yes, I couldn't agree more. I was just going to say the first thing I think you need to do is find your staff, find where they are. The second thing you need to do is talk to them, have a conversation with them. And as Tom said, listen. Listen to them and take action on what they're telling you. If you really want to be an effective ally, you can't do that in a vacuum, you can't do that. You can't make assumptions about what might be an issue in your organisation or what your community might need. You're going to have to have those conversations and where you have them, trust me, they'll tell you and you can act on that. It's a really helpful thing to kind of have that engagement with your staff.Lucie Yes, I mean, I agree with everything Tom and Emma said. I think you're an employer, and you're interested in setting up a network or community in your workplace, you're not sure where to start. Yes, listen to people. Find who your people are, and capitalise on them, really invest in them and give them time. But I guess as an employer, if you're not sure where to start, do a bit of research. Google's your friend. Find other workplaces. If you've got contacts with other people in a similar line of industry as you, get on the phone, have a chat with them, see if they've got anything similar and what they've learned from it, and how they set it up in the early days. You may be a member of the Chamber of Commerce, you might be part of an employer group. Reach out to them, ask questions, do your own research, as well as trying to find those individuals and start listening to those people and what they want and what they need.Chau Fantastic. It's been wonderful listening to all your insights, advice and top tips on how organisations and employers can support their LGBTI+ communities at work. I'd just like to say thank you for everyone for joining us today. Emma Thanks Chau. Lucie Thanks Chau. Tom Thanks Chau. Chau This has been the Acas podcast, you can find out more information about supporting the LGBTI+ community at work on our website at acas.org.uk, including research, guidance, blogs, and policy templates. And we have all the links in the episode notes. If you require more specialist and individual support, then we have a fantastic range of expert advisers who can provide bespoke work just cater to your needs. So please do get in touch. Contact details and information for this service is also included in the episode notes. Thank you for listening
The cost of conflict
This episode is the first of our new, special edition podcasts on The Future of Work, featuring debate and thought-provoking questions with special guests, on key themes around the future of work. In this episode, Gill Dix, head of policy at Acas, looks at new research commissioned by Acas on the cost of conflict to UK workplaces.Conflict is an inevitable part of life, but what is the financial cost of conflict to workplaces in the UK? Is it taken seriously by organisations? Does investing in conflict management make sense for all workplaces or just some?Join Gill and the report’s authors, Richard Saundry, Professor of Human Resource Management and Employment Relations at Sheffield University and Peter Urwin, Professor of Applied Economics at the University of Westminster to unpack the cost of conflict and what we can do about it.Episode resources:Read the report on the cost of conflict here: https://www.acas.org.uk/costs-of-conflictFor more resources to help you improve productivity in your workplace, visit: https://www.propelhub.org/Transcript available at www.acas.org.uk/podcast
Creating good work in Manchester: why people management matters
What is good work? Does better people management really make a difference to productivity? In this episode, we focus in on good work in Manchester. We look at how the joint work by Acas, CIPD and Manchester Growth Hub is highlighting just how critical investing in people management skills is to creating good employment – even in a pandemic.We’re joined by Ian McArthur head of the Greater Manchester good employment charter, Daphne Doody, head of CIPD in northern England, and Terry Duffy, Acas area director for the northwest of England. We unpack:The argument and evidence for good work practisesHow better people management changes work for the betterWhat impact COVID-19 has had – and might continue to have – on making working lives betterEpisode notes:Manchester’s Good Employment Charter, which also includes links to free resources is here:https://www.gmgoodemploymentcharter.co.uk/You can read the joint report and find links to useful resources: https://www.gmgoodemploymentcharter.co.uk/news-blogs/posts/2021/april/soft-skills-in-hard-times-why-good-people-management-matters-more-than-ever/If you're looking for tailored support to improve your workplace culture and practises, check out our website: https://www.acas.org.uk/tailored-support-for-your-workplaceTranscript available at www.acas.org.uk/podcast
The business of mental wellbeing - with Fujitsu
Does investing in mental wellbeing really bring business benefits? We’re joined by Sarah-Jane Littleford, Head of Responsible Business at Fujitsu Global Delivery in the second of three episodes featuring stories from employers working to improve mental health at work. Sarah-Jane shares:How it makes business sense for Fujitsu to invest in the mental wellbeing of their people.How Fujitsu’s approach to wellbeing has shifted during the pandemicHer insights on what’s made the biggest differenceEpisode resources:For more information on supporting mental health during coronavirus, visit: www.acas.org.uk/mental-health-resourcesFor in depth analysis, in our latest policy paper, Adrian Wakeling explores the impact that COVID-19 is having on how workplaces support mental health. To contact an Acas adviser for specialist support, get in touchTranscript available at www.acas.org.uk/podcast
Workplace wellbeing strategy in practice: the Ministry of Defence
How does a large, complex organisation create a coherent mental wellbeing strategy that works? In the first of three episodes showcasing employers taking action on wellbeing, we’re joined by Martin Short, Head of Wellbeing, Inclusion and Diversity at the Defence Intelligence unit, which is part of the Ministry of Defence.This episode is for leaders, managers and advocates for mental health in the workplace. You’ll hear how Martin created a wellbeing strategy with distinct stages, what actions made a difference, and how you can influence others in your organisation to make wellbeing a priority.Episode resources:The Acas Framework for Positive Mental HealthFive ways to wellbeingHeadspaceMental health first aidSpeak to an Acas adviser for tailored supportTranscript SarahHello and welcome to the Acas podcast, I'm Sarah Guthrie, we are Acas, the workplace experts. And today I'm here with Martin Short, who is head of well being diversity and inclusion at the Defense Intelligence Unit, which is part of the Ministry of Defense. We are talking about mental health today. And what we really wanted to do at Acas is give real life examples of organizations who have headed this question of wellbeing face on and have created strategies and actions which have improved wellbeing in their organizations. So I'm delighted to be joined by Martin who we've worked with over the past year or two on mental health. Martin, to start off, I wondered if you could just explain what Defense Intelligence is? Because I certainly did not know before meeting you.MartinSure, Sarah, Well, I mean, intelligence itself is really just the sort of art or the science of helping people make better decisions. And so Defense Intelligence is a large business unit within the Ministry of Defense, and it provides an intelligence function for MoD, so it helps MoD and other government departments make better decisions. And we do that, in order to enable military operations or activities. Sometimes it's disaster relief, sometimes it's provision of aid to other countries, but we provide planning information that actually helps the government run operations.SarahThat sounds like very significant work, and I'm guessing it can be stressful for your employees. How did you get involved in wellbeing Martin initially?MartinI think my journey, really, I've done a number of different jobs in the MoD, I've worked abroad for best part of a decade as well, and I sort of came to a point really, it was probably around sort of 2015 or 2016, where, you know, I've been used to sort of seeing, you know, the normal stresses that you get in any workplace, really, you know. We've got staff that have to work to tight tight deadlines, particularly when they're working on crises. Quite often, you know, our specialists are only one deep and so, you know, we can put quite a lot of pressure on particular individuals, and, and also, you know, we've got the impact of constant change, you know, we're trying to date deal with emerging threats, you know, that the world doesn't stay static for any length of time nowadays. And so, that constant change that happens within organizations having to adapt to, you know, the macro environment as well, that can cause stressors for staff as well. But I mean, I think there are also particular sort of issues within organizations such as Defense Intelligence, because there are security concerns, you know, some of the material that we work with, we can't talk about. And so if B, if staff have had a particularly stressful day, it's not always possible to offload to friends or families in the way that might be in other organizations. In terms of effort to sort of de-stigmatize mental health, you know, such staff sometimes worry that if they, you know, fess up to a mental health condition, it might in some way affect their security clearances, and therefore, their job security. So we have sort of issues like that. But also, you know, we have to deal with some pretty unpleasant material from across the world, you know, we have to monitor the aftermath of terrorist attacks. So sometimes our staff have to go through visual material, which is potentially very injurious to mental health. And that's, you know, where they certainly need a little bit of extra support. And you know, where we really need to sort of focus on helping staff develop the skills they need to manage their mental health more effectively.SarahAnd so, back in 2015, you were noticing these issues and wondering what you could do about them?MartinI think I became concerned about the just the lack of resources that we had in that particular area. So back then we didn't have a wellbeing set up within the organization, there was no real sort of depth and sort of mental health support at all. And so we really started looking at different ways in which we could provide that support. And I actually became sufficiently interested enough to take an 18 months secondment out of the organization. And I spent that time working with what works center for wellbeing. So I did that, I came back to the organization, I persuaded the head of the organization that because of some of the challenges that we had, it was well worth investing in this area. And you know, to his eternal credit, he listened. And we kicked that off in 2018. And we've been going ever since then, really.SarahAnd so from that, the obvious question is, so what did you do?MartinWell, we realized that we had to sort of learn how to walk before we could run with this. When we started, we didn't really have a corporate understanding of what we meant by wellbeing within the organization. And in particular, you know, I think a lot of people thought it was something rather soft and fluffy. And so there was a lot of work to actually expose the, you know, the current wealth of wellbeing evidence that's out there to staff, and help them understand that well being is something that mattered not just to individuals. It wasn't just a question of feeling happy in the workplace, but that there were hard business benefits to it as well. So that educate bit was really important, because it just enabled us to get to a sort of common understanding of what by what we meant by wellbeing. So we could then start to have better informed higher quality conversations. Now the other thing, because we're dispersed across dozens of different sites, I didn't know who was doing what at which site in wellbeing. And so we had another activity that we called connect, which was really just about identifying all the stakeholders who had an interest in wellbeing. And anyone who had an interest in wellbeing we pulled together and we formed them into a single stakeholder group. And that was the community that I created to work with over the course of the full program. And then the final one was measurement. We recognized the data that we had on well being was actually very low quality. And we knew that if we wanted to make improvements, we needed to get some sort of benchmark from which we could measure. And so we actually used a tool that was developed by the what work center for well being, and that actually created the benchmark we are now currently using to measure the effect of the interventions that we make as we go through the next few years. So that first stage of getting the basics right with its sub every element of educate, connect, and measure that was absolutely critical to it.SarahSo there were these first phases of educate, connect and measure, just on the definition of wellbeing, what definition did you end up using?MartinI pulled it through from the what works work center for wellbeing because I, it's nice and simple. Well being for us, really, is simply how we feel we're doing, you know, as a nation, as communities, and as an individuals. How sustainable it is for the future. So it's very subjective in nature. And if you think about it, you know, the same situation can produce completely different well being outcomes in two different individuals, you know, one person might, you know, really like a particular environment, someone else might not like it at all. And so that's subjective nature of well, being the experiential angle of it, I think it's a really important one to recognize, you know, we're all different. And I think, you know, perhaps looking at the COVID experience, you know, you can see that some people have breezed through it without, you know, any ill effect whatsoever, other people have had an absolutely awful time through it. So again, that same sort of macro experience can have very, very different impact on individuals. And I think recognizing that well being is a subjective experience, and people can react differently to different situations, I think it's a really important one to try and acknowledge if you want to do something about it.SarahIt's interesting, Martin, that definition of well being. When I think of the MoD, I think of a macho culture. I'm wondering, when you started that initial phase, did you get pushback on wellbeing as a word, either from employees or from managers who didn't think it should be a priority?MartinI think it's so it's always had a right, you know, until probably about 10 years back, I think it's, you know, wellbeing's had a reputation of being something a little bit soft, fluffy and intangible. But I think what has changed over the past 10 years, is just the sort of volume of research that's now starting to indicate the, you know, there are real connections between workforces that have higher levels of well being and much, much better business outcomes. So, you know, there's already lots of evidence to, you know, show that, you know, higher levels of well being have an impact on performance, on productivity, on creativity, on resilience. And I think, particularly for our organization, you know, we're constantly having to respond to evolving threats. There's a lot of uncertainty in our business as well. And so we want people to, you know, to be innovative, to be creative, to come up with new ways of doing things. Because if we don't actually have a workforce that will experiment, wil try something new, then, you know, we stand very little chance of being able to evolve and, you know, meet the threats that are actually sort of that are actually out there. Yes, I think, you know, I think the military does has a reputation of being a macho culture, but I do think an awful lot has changed over the past, you know, couple of decades or so. So I do think the times are changing with that. But you know, MoD is a huge organization and, you know, change in any big organization is it's like turning an oil tanker. So it does take time. But I think we are heading in a good direction now.SarahAnd you began trying to shift that oil tanker with these phases of educate, connect measure. Moving on from that, what were the strategies, or what were the actions that you took to improve well being across the organization?MartinWe did take a structured approach. And I'll put in a plug for the ACAS mental health model, because we found that incredibly useful. So for those who don't actually know what it is, it basically breaks down what can potentially be a very complex workplace well being model, you know, when you look at well, being a well being challenge in its entirety, it can be quite daunting. But what what I did find that the ACAS model enabled us to do was break it down into manageable chunks. So that was to really look at, you know, what we could do to with at the individual level, what we could do at the manager level, and what we could do at the organization level. So the individual level was really about helping individuals develop the skills and resources they needed to better look after themselves. The manager level, it was about developing managers skills and awareness, so they could better promote well being a team level. And at the organizational level, it was about ensuring that well being considerations are applied to policies, processes and structures within the organization. So we actually have a culture the cultural series of cultural habits that enhance well being rather rather than sap it so breaking it, you know, that complex wellbeing puzzle into those three chunks, we found very helpful indeed, because it just made it a lot easier to manage.SarahSo thinking about someone who's listening to this, who gets that this is a priority, what kind of maybe quick wins, might they be able to put in place, say in the next two months to six months that would really support their people's well being in what is undeniably a very stressful time?MartinSure. Well, I mean, I think, you know, let's go back to the a caste model with it. Because I do think it's helpful to look at, you know, what you can do individual manager and organizational levels. So, I think the one thing that I think underpins everything else is destigmatization, you know, I think all organizations need a culture where people have no embarrassment about talking about mental health, that, you know, people are happy and comfortable talking to managers or Mental Health First Aiders, when they get into struggling territory, and know that they're going to get the support that they need to get them, you know, up and running again as quickly as possible. So at the individual level, the basic framework that we use, and I think this is a really quick win for any organization is just adopting the five ways to wellbeing. This is a framework that's used, really as the sort of, you know, core healthy habits, sort of advice from the NHS. And it's really just a series of five habits, or you know, whether it's a really good evidence base to show that the more you can build into your daily routine, the greater the sort of beneficial effect on your well being, we did a mindfulness offer. So we partnered up with headspace on that they produce some metrics every month, I find that quite useful, because I'm able to see what packs people within the organization are accessing. And throughout COVID, the two big ones have been stress and sleep. So again, that gives me a sort of a bit of an indication of the sort of support that staff are looking for from within the organization. It's not exactly a quick win, but Mental Health First Aid. We've got a network of instructors now we feel that's really changed the dynamic on discussions of mental health within the organization. So it really helps with that destigmatization at the manager level. Probably a little bit more difficult, but I think anything that you can do to increase awareness and confidence of managers to talk about mental health issues, so whether that's mental health awareness, training, mental health, first aid training, all that stuff's going to help. And I think the other thing in terms of recognition and reward, we do have managers who do that little extra bit to actually make the workplace environment, you know, happier, healthier, more fulfilling place for staff then recognized and that's a very easy thing for organizations to do. So if you've got a manager who achieves results by cracking the whip harder, they're probably not the people you want to be rewarding. And I think at the organizational level, you know, what we did was we made sure that well being diversity and inclusion were permanently established as routine agenda items in all our senior management boards. We put in a mandatory objective each year to encourage people to get involved in well being and diversity in Inclusion activity. And that also provided a map mechanism, again, to say thank you to those people who did that a little bit extra went above and beyond, you know, for the sake of their communities and their teams. And then I think the final thing that we tried to do really not exactly a quick win was actually incorporating wellbeing training in through career training.SarahWhat strikes me listening to you is that you're not really thinking about mental health as this thing over here, that happens in a box that you've got your mental First Aiders on to kind of, you know, sort the symptoms. You're thinking, "Well, what else in the organization is increasing or decreasing the likelihood that someone feels good about their work? And how could what action can we take to increase the likelihood that they feel good and recognized and valued in their work?" Because you know that that will impact on their well being?MartinI think so. So yeah, I think also, is, there's a little bit there on where you put well being. So you know, I think a lot of organizations have thought, "Now wellbeing, yes, it's about people, isn't it, so, you know, probably naturally fits into HR." But when you actually look at, you know, what drives well being the cultural aspects, I think it's far more sensible for organizations to look at treating well being as a foundation stone of their culture, you know, it's not a little hang on that you put into sort of HR, it, it is the very essence of your organizational culture. So, there is that need in any organization to feel that the workplace is fair, that, you know, you will be recognized for, you know, for effort that you put in, it's not, it's not going to be claimed by someone else, you'd like to feel part of something bigger, knowing that your contribution is actually sort of helping and, you know, helping a much, much bit, sort of a bigger aspect of work. And so I think, you know, that, that that positioning does become very important. I think, also, you know, well being, it's a sort of relatively late comer to organizations. And I think initially, a lot of the stuff we do is reactive, so we wait for people to develop a mental health problem, and then we try and fix it. I think as well being programs mature in organizations, they would be far better advised to actually start switching activity to the preventative, you're always going to need the reactive because, you know, we all have mental health. Sometimes we're great, you know, sometimes we're okay, sometimes we're struggling, and sometimes we're ill. But I do think that, you know, as you know, well being sort of effort matures within organizations, they're gonna need to look a lot more at the preventative side of it.SarahThanks so much, Martin, that's been great to hear how you've approached well being in such a huge and complex organization like the mid breaking it down into these chunks and phases, thinking about what could support well being at these different levels of the organization, the manager and individuals. There's such a lot of food for thought in there about what drives good well being and how culture affects that and how we need to shift from preventing poor mental health rather than just treating symptoms. So thank you so much, Martin. This has been the best podcast, I've put links to some of the resources Martin mentioned, like the five ways to wellbeing and the Episode Notes and of course, the A CAS model. We hope you find them useful. And please don't hesitate to get in touch with a cast if you're looking for help with improving mental health in your organization. Thanks for listening.
Covid and Christmas: supporting your people's wellbeing
With Christmas 2020 looking very different this year, we ask what managers can do to support their people at this time of year. Robbie Hurley is joined by Acas head of mental health and wellbeing, Francoise Woolley, and Acas workplace adviser, Susan Raftery, to uncover:What’s unique about this time of year for our wellbeingWhy leave, keeping in touch and (remote) Christmas parties matterWhat to do if you think senior managers will not support Christmas funEpisode ResourcesHoliday, sickness and leave adviceCoronavirus and mental health adviceWebinar: Managing mental health (for managers) Talk to an Acas adviser about your workplace challengeTranscript to follow
Top tips to strengthen your resilience
Resilience - our ability to bounce back after (or during) difficulties - has a significant impact on how we work and how we feel at work. It's not something you either have or don't. For most of us, there are choices we can make, which will either strengthen or weaken our ability to cope during the coronavirus pandemic. Francoise Woolley, head of mental healthand wellbeing at Acas, shares her insights into the small but powerful steps we can take to strengthen our resilience. Episode notesAcas mental health resourcesfor employers, line managers and everyone during the coronavirus pandemic.Acas mental health adviceAcas trainingon supporting positive mental health in the workplaceAcas webinaron mentalhealth at work - current challengesOur experts can also help yourteam or organisation withtailored support.
In touch or disconnected? Managing homeworkers well
As a manager, keeping in touch with people working from home might seem like a simple thing - but it comes with challenges. Drawing on her experience in high-conflict situations, Acas deputy chief conciliator Marina Glasgow shares her techniques for holding effective and successful remote conversations. If you’re a manager wondering how you can prevent isolation, demotivation and disconnection, this is the episode for you.Episode resourcesAcas advice on working from homeAcas podcast on employee voiceWe can work with you to provide tailored support and practical solutions to address challenges at your workplace. Find tailored support for your workplace.
Thinking differently about neurodiversity
Whether or not you’re up to date with the language aroundneurodiversity, ADHD, autism, dyslexia and other terminology, most workplaces include people who think differently, and who might be part of a neurominority. To help us demystify neurodiversity and get proactive, we’re joined by Dr Nancy Doyle, CEO and founder of Genius Within, Adrian Ward, Head of Disability Partnerships at the Business Disability Forum and Erin Fulton-McAlister, Acas workplace adviser. We look at:What neurodiversity isWhy we need to pay attention to itCreating a workplace that celebrates and capitalises on neurodiversityEpisode resourcesAcas neurodiversity guidanceBDF & Genius Within Commissioning framework and how to commission guideContact an Acas adviserfor a free advisory conversation Related Acas podcast - disabilityOrganisations:AcasBusiness Disability ForumGenius WithinTranscript SarahGuthrieWelcome to the Acas Podcast. I'm Sarah Guthrie and today we're focusing on neurodiversity. What is it, why it matters in the workplace, and how workplaces can support neurodiversity in meaningful and practical ways. I'm joined by Dr. Nancy Doyle, Chief Exec and founder of Genius Within, which provides evidence-based neurodiversity inclusion, Adrian Ward, head of disability partnerships at the Business Disability Forum, which brings together business government and disabled people to create a disability smart world and Erin Fulton-McAlister, workplace advisor at Acas. Thanks for joining me today.Adrian Ward, Erin Fulton-McAlister and Dr NancyDoyleNo problem.SarahSo there's lots of different language around neurodiversity and the language shifts a lot, which we've all discussed actually in the past. And I, I wondered if we could start with that in mind. Very simply, what is it that we're talking about when we use words like neurodiversity? Nancy, do you want to kick us off?NancyI do. Yeah. Thank you. So I think, broadly speaking, the word neurodiversity relates to the idea that we are all diverse, that there is cognitive diversity in the strengths and weaknesses of the human species. Some of us are good at most things. Some of us are good at specialist things to the exclusion of other things. And we have this kind of range of what's possible in our human thinking and skill and ability profile. And sometimes the word neurodiversity gets used as a proxy for a handful of conditions that are often known by other titles as well, such as neurodevelopmental disorders, hidden disabilities, specific learning disabilities. My working title for those at the moment is neurominorities, because they are less likely than being a neurotypical. So if you are a neurotypical, it means that broadly speaking, you're competent in all areas of thinking, you know, you're kind of average in all areas of thinking, or maybe you're above average. If you are in a neurominority, it means you have some specialist thinking skills and some specific difficulties. And that includes ADHD, autism, dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia, dysgraphia. And those are the main inclusions. We sometimes also include tic disorders such as Tourette's, we sometimes also include mental health and chronic neurological conditions. Because like the others, what happens when you have those conditions, is you end up with a big difference between your skills and your weaknesses. So because of the weaknesses, neurominorities are typically covered by Equality Act protection and disability legislation worldwide. But it's important to remember that those conditions come with strengths as well.SarahThanks, Nancy. That's a really kind of holistic introduction. What struck me when you were talking is that this is an umbrella term, it is in itself diverse. And I wondered, how does that diversity of the difference between ADHD and dyslexia affect how people identify with and see this as something that they need to think about?NancySo concepts like autism, ADHD, and dyslexia are very much diagnoses of exclusion. They're things that we decide people have when we've exhausted all possible other explanations for difficulties in scale or behavior. And actually, the science of those categories is moving on incredibly quickly at the moment. And there are some evidence from neuroimaging studies, that actually that the kind of brain differences are not that great, and that those conditions have more in common than they do have separate and actually what we currently call a diagnosis of dyspraxia or dyslexia might really be a symptom cluster. And, and from my own professional practice working with thousands of neurominorities over the last few decades, I would say that people come to the workplace with very similar problems. So 92% of my clients, no matter which label or brand they are associated with, 92% of them struggle with memory and concentration. 82% struggle with organisation, 78% with time and 67% with communication skills, and I've run this study over thousands of thousands of participants, and it's always about those numbers. So I think from a business perspective, what's more useful, rather than trying to think, "Autistic people will need this" or "Dyslexic people will need that" or, you know, or even to think that an autistic person doesn't have dyslexic symptoms or that an ADHD person isn't also slightly dyspraxic. So instead of getting hung up over labels, what's more important is just to say, "How can I support you to work at your best? What are the things that you're doing really well? What are the things that you're struggling with? What kind of reasonable adjustments what we might be put in, to scaffold you and augment you and to enable you to really thrive in the workplace?" And we can ask that question without detailed descriptions of conditions, and what may or may not be happening in the brain.AdrianYeah, I mean, just to jump on the back of what Nancy said there in complete agreement. And it's a lot of the work we do, with the organisations that we work with, is actually trying to change that culture of either trying to get a diagnosis or trying to pigeonhole or label people into either particular roles or particular solutions for those individuals. And, and actually encouraging them to think more about barriers that they might be encountering, how to remove those barriers, the support that an individual might require, etc etc. So really flipping the thought process from not trying to label and pigeonhole to actually just ask what does an individual need to be able to flourish in the role that they're in?ErinYeah, I completely agree. And I think that, from an Acas point of view, a lot of what we're going to be talking about is really just good management. And it's about supporting people as individuals, rather than because they have a label.NancyAnd there is a tricky balance in this because, you know, when we go a little bit wide of "This affects everybody, everybody is neuro diverse neuro diversity of everybody. It's about asking all individuals and good management," which I 100% endorse. And I think people could get very tied up worrying about whether they're doing the right thing or not. And actually, if they were just doing good management, it would probably be okay. But what we do have to remember with neurodiversity and neurominorities, is that a lot of the time, these are disabling conditions. And somebody said to me, once, "Well, we all have difficulty concentrating sometimes." And I said, "What you've just said, to me, as a woman with ADHD, is the equivalent of me saying to you, as a woman using a wheelchair, we all have trouble walking sometimes." There are statistically significant differences in people's skill levels. That means the things that we do as managers - our legal obligations - they're not nice to have, they are good management, but they are also legal obligations. And when we don't do them, we are not creating the level playing field that we want to create for all our employees. So they're not preferences, their requirements. And the kind of things that I would draw attention to are things like, you know, allowing people to not abide by a hot desking policy, if you are very easily distracted, or you know, have that kind of high sensory awareness that comes with autism, you might find there's a certain point in the office where it's quiet enough for you to focus and concentrate. And you might simply be unable to do that, unless you're at that point in the office. So an organization might allow you to choose your desks, they might allow you to work from home more frequently, they might allow you to book out a meeting room, if you had to do a report that you were really concentrating on or wear earphones to cut out background noise. So there's, there's lots of things people can do. And they might look like preferences. But it's the difference between functioning and not functioning, as opposed to being a little bit annoyed and being a little bit, you know, okay.SarahSo there's a very clear difference in severity, almost?NancyYeah, yeah. Yeah, people aren't choosing to stop concentrating, people aren't choosingto take longer over typo checking and writing and reading through edits, they're not doing that deliberately. It's not because they're...they haven't got a moral character deficit, it's not that they need to try harder or shape up or put a bit more effort in, it's that the parts of the brain do those particular functions aren't as well connected or don't work as well, or are too busy processing a whole load of other information that's coming in from the rest of the environment. So it's really important that people know that there are observable, measurable, definite brain differences. That means certain jobs are easy, and certain jobs are hard. And when we assign words like "prefer" or "try" or you know, "work a bit harder" around the things that people are deficient in, you know, it's like telling somebody who's deaf to listen harder.SarahAnd this might be quite an obvious question, because I feel like you're all bringing up elements of it anyway. But I wondered, Adrian, when you're talking to businesses about this topic, what do you say when they ask you, "Well, why do we need to focus on this?"AdrianYeah, and it does definitely come up as a as a question. It's difficult. In this world, when you work in this world, it becomes very glib just to come back with a, "Well, why wouldn't you?" kind of respond to that. I know that's not necessarily always helpful to get the right engagement. But one of the things I always say to an organization, you know, if you're truly committed to inclusion, you should be looking at how you attract, recruit, retain, and develop neurodiverse talent within your organization. So my biggest sort of push back and biggest sort of line I'll take with an organization is about tapping into the widest pool of talent you possibly can do. And if people need more information around that, and you know, I talk to people about actually, how health it is for an organization to have a workforce that has a real diverse range of thinking. So where people do think differently to others within the organization, where creative thinking is really encouraged and fostered and allowed to flourish within an organization, how some people are very solution focused and great problem solvers. Again, why wouldn't you want people with those sorts of skills within your organization, people that can massively grasp complex concepts very quickly? Again, why would you not want people with those sorts of skills within your organization. So it's trying to help organizations just think, wider than perhaps some of the stereotypes, some of the myths, some of those sort of .pigeon holed views.ErinThe other thing to bear in mind here is that the law says you have to. Being neurodivergent will usually amount to a disability under the Equality Act 2010. And this means that organizations have a legal obligation to make reasonable adjustments to the workplace, and to the individual's role that will remove or minimize any disadvantage to that individual. So, yes, it is important from a legal point of view. And there are really potentially huge consequences if you ignore that point of view. But it's not only as Adrian's already said that there's a threat if you don't do it. There are huge advantages to your organization's if you do do it.SarahSo it's good for your business for your organization, and there's a legal obligation. How do you do that, then? What do you think are the main barriers for organizations? And how can we overcome them to create a workplace, which does help people thrive to their fullest potential?NancyI think that the majority of workplaces are reluctant to be flexible and change. And we've got to get a bit more creative about how we organize work. So you know, most office spaces, for example, are organized around the idea that clocks needed to be adjacent to paper ledgers. Because that's when they were invented in the sort of 1800s. And, actually, that's not really true in a remote working world. And we all know that now, because we've all just lived through the COVID-19 pandemic, or are still living through should I say., So there's a whole bunch of norms that we have assumed are reasonable. And so because we've designed our workplaces around those norms, that's where we're creating disability. We've assumed that all humans, in order to have value, must be able to spell and read efficiently, must be able to operate fine motor control devices, must be able to sit still and concentrate for hours at a time, and must be able to think well in busy, loud environments. And when you think about human evolution, and those particular characteristics of human behavior, they're actually not very typical at all. It's a bit weird! And as our workplaces continue to evolve and progress into the future of work, what we need to do is start designing work around the skills that we need, rather than the things that we're used to because we've always done them that way. So we can start with this idea of changing our systems and being systemically inclusive, and then personalized to what an individual needs. But whereas at the moment, what's happening is we don't think that we have to change our environments at all. And we're putting a lot of energy and effort into making an individual able to cope with it, but actually the environment might not be suitable for the workplace at all. I'd like to see in 20 years time whether we still need to sit still to concentrate at all. You know, will people that need to sit still have sedentary dependent concentration disorder instead of people that like to move having ADHD? You know, we could flip all of this on its head. Will people that only like to communicate using literacy rather than video communication be called hyperlexic dependent syndromes, you know? [Laughs] There's lots of ways we could flip this, but it's about I think, just really thinking about the work that you want and the performance that you need, and designing your jobs and environment around the output rather than the inputAdrianFor us and how we work organizations, we look across that kind of complete employee journey or life cycle and talk with organizations about whole range of things,but things like from the attraction candidates, making sure that recruitment processes are barrier free and as inclusive as possible. And then we will work with organizations around what are they doing that actually retains that talent once you've recruited them? So have you got that onboarding process right? Is it easy to get adjustments, and Nancy touched on the built environment. And one of my sort of big bugbears is around progression and development. I've certainly seen a tendency of actually the focus being on attracting candidates, getting candidates into roles, but then not necessarily really thinking about actually how they are developed and progress within that organization. So there's a whole range of areas that an organization should be thinking. But if they think about that employee lifecycle, from the point that they're attracted to make an application all the way through to how they can then flourish and progress within that organization, they're areas that we'd really encourage organizations to focus on.ErinAn example that I've come across is an organization who had an applicant who declared that they were autistic and requested that the panel avoid hypothetical questions. Now, I know that's one of the very common ones. But this organization decided that they would not do it for just that individual, they would do it for everybody in that recruitment round. And they, they did things like give all of the candidates the questions that they were going to ask 20 minutes before the interview itself, to give them an opportunity to think about their best examples, not just the first thing that comes to their head. They did an exercise in which they gave somebody a scenario that related to the job that they would be doing and asked them about that situation, and whether it was something that experienced before - which I realise sounds hypothetical, but in the situation wasn't. And what they found was that that recruitment process worked significantly better at getting good people in than their previous one had done. And actually, they've adopted that for all recruitment going forward across the entire organization.NancyJust wanted to come in on the point of kind of how do you know what you should be doing and trying this and asking people what they need, and having lists of things that you can try. And, and I see, you know, this is a big ongoing learning, and the big grey area in this is what is a reasonable adjustment? So we know that there are lots of things that you can do as adjustments, and not all of them will be reasonable for your organization to put in and where is that boundary of reasonable? And one of the things that I'm seeing a lot of at the moment, which I find really concerning, is where people are going for that advice. I worked with an assistive technology expert Neil Milliken and the Business Disability Forum to write a commissioning framework for commissioning neuro diversity inclusion services. Because it's a bit of a minefield! Do you need a psychologist, a mental health nurse, a professional coach, a teacher and educator, you know who's got the professional expertise in this field? It's really difficult. So we put together a commissioning framework, which kind of enables you to go through the main issues of risk, safeguarding, insurance, training, credibility, and work out whether - for the size of the project you've got or the you know, the need that you have in your organization - whether you're commissioning the right people. It's a really helpful resource. The BDF and Acas both provide excellent resources in this respect. It's about going for advice to people that can give you credible advice based on a wide range of experience and professional training, as opposed to their own anecdotal case study of one.SarahThank you, Nancy. And we will put a link to that in the episode notes for this episode. I think it's available for free for two weeks. So if you're listening to this, grab it while it's available. We've been talking a lot about what we can do now. But I'm very curious to know what you think we should be doing in the future. Where would you love to see us, the workplace, the future of the workplace move on this topic?NancySo I think where we're headed is universal design, systemic inclusion, I think we're still stuck in compliance based inclusion. So we're waiting for people to fail and then we're buffering around them. We've got quite a lot of token inclusion where we're bringing in groups of people that have specific conditions for specific skills, like autistic coders, which is sadly lacking ntersectional wisdom and tends to kind of repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat the same type of person. It's not really where we should be headed. The idea of systemic inclusion, where it's just the way things are done around here. So all of the things that my two colleagues on this call have said about kind of reviewing your policies, reviewing your structures, you know, really thinking about the the eventual eventual design, where we need to be headed is where this isn't a thing anymore. Where we don't have a diversity and inclusion team where, where disability support is part of the typical HR functionality. The kind of things you need, you can order from a stationary order, or are built into the training development program. And if you think about the prevalence, one of the things we've done looking at our cohorts over the last decade is notice that a sizeable proportion of our clients come to us for help when they're promoted. So it's on promotion, when all of a sudden their job role changes a little bit, or they have to do slightly different things, that's when they need adjustments and support. So rather than wait for people to fail, why don't we just say, "Okay, so as part of our new manager onboarding, we know that for about 15 to 20% of people, they're going to need extra support in these areas. So we built this into our manager onboarding, so on as our manager onboarding courses start, here's the specific ones around managing concentration time, here's your additional literacy resources from the assistive technology suite. Off you go."SarahThank you. Adrian.AdrianSo I think there's a, I'm sensing, I think there is a real opportunity to build on some of the momentum that appears to be there at the moment. It's about actually, how do we harness this real thirst for knowledge and information that's there at the moment, and keep that conversation going and evolving as much as we possibly can? And then my final sort of comment is that - perhaps it's more of a question than a comment. But I just wonder whether COVID and the pandemic and how that's changed how we work, whether that could or should create new and better opportunities moving forward.ErinSo I think what I would like to see would be, organizations get to a point where individuals feel confident in asking for support because of what they are seeing, because they believe that the organization really will be flexible and provide the adjustments that they need, without any kind of disadvantage to those individuals. I'd like to see line managers feel confident in providing that support and in having those conversations with members of their team. And not as a one off, but as an ongoing conversation and ongoing support. I would like to see colleagues within those teams get to a point where they feel that seeing their colleagues doing things differently, or perhaps being managed differently, is a sign of good management and a sign that they can ask for support if they need it as well, rather than unfair treatment. And ultimately, I'd like to see that organizations and individuals together will, through doing these sorts of things, reap the benefits of diversity.SarahThank you. That is a brilliant note to end on, which I am reluctant to do, as there's clearly more to discuss here. We've touched on some really big questions about the whole nature of work and how we design it. And that as well as we've been going big, we've also had some really good principles and insights like not getting hung up on labels, rethinking your systems and your policies, redesigning them, getting expert advice, and not relying on stereotypes or lived experience inappropriately. It's been a fascinating podcast. So Adrian, Nancy and Erin, thank you. This has been the Acas Podcast, I've put links to helpful resources on neurodiversity, including the neurodiversity commissioning framework that Nancy mentioned, which is available for free for two weeks. And we've also put some links to advice. If you're looking for bespoke support to help you increase your diversity and inclusion than Acas also offers free chats with advisors. If that's of interest to you, then I've put a link to the number and the contact form in the notes as well. Thanks for listening.