Chatter

After more than three years, Chatter is ending its run. In this episode, Shane and David reflect on the diverse range of topics at the frontiers of national security that this podcast has explored—from spy fiction to lessons of history, from climate change to the visual and musical arts, and from sports and culture to the practice of intelligence.Along the way, they refer back to many of the podcast’s brilliant guests while lamenting conversations yet unrealized and specific issues yet unaddressed. And they finally ask *each other* several questions from the Chatterbox before closing it. (Forever?)Works mentioned in this episode: Many too many to list. Goodbye, and thank you for listening.Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Carmen Medina defies simple description. She spent more than 30 years at the CIA, rising to the leadership team of the Directorate of Intelligence, despite her iconoclasticism and vociferous evangelism of new technologies. Since retiring more than a decade ago, she has co-written a book about rebelling within bureaucracy--and advocated the exploration of precognition for intelligence purposes.She joined David Priess for a wide and deep conversation about her analytic and managerial career, the process and pitfalls of analytic coordination, cooperation between US and UK intelligence, the CIA's incorporation of publish-when-ready technology in the late 1990s, the downside of extensive editorial review of analytic products, the importance of including more intuition in intelligence analysis, why precognition should be taken seriously, and more.Works mentioned in this episode:The book Rebels At Work by Lois Kelly and Carmen MedinaThe book Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel KahnemanThe article by Carmen Medina, "The Potential of Integrating Intelligence and Intuition," Cipher Brief, June 10, 2022.The book American Cosmic by D. W. PasulkaThe book Orbiting the Giant Hairball by Gordon MacKenzieThe book How To Be a Renaissance Woman by Jill BurkeThe book 1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed by Eric ClineThe book The Infidel and the Professor by Dennis RasmussenThe book The Ministry of Time by Kaliane BradleyThe book The Chronoliths by Robert Charles WilsonChatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Shane Harris makes no secret about his love for the film version of this Cold War submarine thriller, based on the Tom Clancy novel. It’s his favorite movie. So he was delighted to welcome fellow obsessive Katherine Voyles to the podcast. A PhD in English, Voyles writes about national security in culture, as well as the culture of national security. She and Shane talked about why they love the movie, their favorite scenes and characters, and how the story influenced--maybe even created--an entire genre of fiction. They also discussed why it is, actually, a Christmas movie, and their mutual admiration for the martini. Voyles’s writing has appeared in in the Los Angeles Review of Books, Foreign Policy, Task &Purpose, Small Wars Journal, and War on the Rocks. She also works for the Department of Defense. In addition to the greatest movie of all time, essays, TV shows, books, and restaurants discussed in this episode include: Colson Whitehead’s “The Way We Live Now” https://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/11/magazine/the-way-we-live-now-11-11-01-lost-and-found.html Deutschland 83 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4445154/ Garrett Graff’s The Only Plane in the Sky https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Only-Plane-in-the-Sky/Garrett-M-Graff/9781501182211 Lauren Wilkinson’s American Spy https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/253471/american-spy-by-lauren-wilkinson/ Saltie Girl https://www.saltiegirl.com/ Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

International politics and security expert Dr. Ben Tallis, who now directs the Berlin-based Democratic Strategy Initiative, joined David Priess to discuss the challenges of German grand strategy since 1945, the country's musical culture in the 1950s and 1960s, the origins and evolution of Kraftwerk and its members' effort to reconceptualize German identity, the band's influence on musicians globally, U2 and post-Cold War Europe, how Germany became the most respected country in the world by 2020, Chancellor Angela Merkel's missed opportunities to reconceptualize Germany's international role, the Russian invasion of Ukraine and Chancellor Olaf Scholz's Zeitenwende speech, German rearmament since 2022 compared to Poland, the role of chancellor in the German system, the roster of future German leaders, and whether countries in Central and Eastern Europe would have enough confidence in German resolve to follow more assertive leadership from Berlin.Mentioned in this episode:Official website of the band KraftwerkThe Democratic Strategy Initiative, at www.democratic-strategy.netThe journal article by Benjamin Tallis, "Kraftwerk and the International 'Re-Birth of Germany:' Multiplicity, Identity, and Difference in Music and International Relations," in Cooperation and Conflict, Vol. 57:3 (2022)The online article by Roderick Parkes, Florence Schimmel, and Benjamin Tallis, "Germany Needs a Strategy--Grand and Democratic," in Internationale Politik Quarterly, January 16, 2024Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Sherri Goodman was the first Deputy Under Secretary of Defense for Environmental Security and has worked on issues around climate change, the environment, and security for more than 35 years. She joined David Priess to discuss her work on the staff of the Senate Armed Service Committee starting in the 1980s, her impressions of Senator Sam Nunn, her duties as the first Deputy Under Secretary of Defense (Environmental Security), the campaign to clean up the Defense Department's nuclear-related facilities, her visits to Russia in the 1990s, the threat climate change poses to military facilities, the US military as an environmental crisis responder, how climate change and environmental concerns have changed military training, climate change as multiplier of opportunities as well as a multiplier of threats, and more.Works mentioned in this episode:Threat Multiplier by Sherri GoodmanMilitary Responses to Climate Hazards (MiRCH) Tracker, at the Center for Climate & SecurityNew Cold Wars by David Sanger with Mary BrooksOrbital by Samantha HarveyThe Heat and the Fury by Peter SchwartzsteinChatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Rachel Shelden is Associate Professor of History and Director of the Richards Civil War Center at Penn State University. She joined David Priess to talk about the disputed presidential election of 1876 and how the political system found a way to avoid widespread violence and another civil war while resolving it in 1877. They discussed Abraham Lincoln's huge impact on kids growing up in Illinois, the status of Reconstruction by 1876, US political culture in the late 19th century, Rutherford Hayes and Samuel Tilden, what happened on election day and night, how Congress handled contradictory election returns from three states, the creation and operation of the special commission created to resolve the issue, how Hayes won, what we can take away from 1876-77, and the importance of Constitutional creativity and flexibility.Works mentioned in this episode:"Americans worry about 2020 being another 2000, but the real worry is another 1876," by Rachel Shelden and Erik B. Alexander, Washington Post, October 20, 2000.Washington Brotherhood by Rachel Shelden (2013)Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Donald Trump is going back to the White House and is already busy stocking his future Cabinet. Shane Harris sat down with two of The Washington Post’s best political reporters to talk about Trump’s victory, some of his initial choices for top national security positions--which are drawing extraordinary controversy--and what we might expect in Trump’s second term. Ashley Parker and Josh Dawsey covered Trump’s first term in office as White House correspondents. They also covered his latest campaign and are reporting now on what is shaping up to be another chaotic presidential transition. Read some of their latest reporting here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/11/06/how-donald-trump-won-presidential-election/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/11/09/harris-biden-trump-election-defeat/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/11/16/trump-transition-cabinet-controversy/

As the US tries to come to grips with a resurgence of political violence in recent years, it's instructive to look at how the norm against political violence eroded during the late Roman Republic and contributed to ultimately autocratic rule.Catherine Steel, Professor of Classics at the University of Glasgow, specializes in the political history of the Roman Republic and its institutional structures and has written books and articles about the period. She joined David Priess to discuss her path from studying Cicero to researching and teaching the politics and history of ancient Rome, the core political features of the Republic, the concept of tribunal sacrosanctity, the challenges of dealing with primary sources on ancient Rome, how political violence flared in 133 BCE around Tiberius Gracchus, the political violence 12 years later around his brother Gaius Gracchus, the 20 years of off-and-on political violence around Marius and Sulla, the intent and effects of Sulla's constitution, the lead-up to Julius Caesar, Roman citizens' awareness of changes in the Republic, implications for today, and more.Works mentioned in this episode:The Storm Before the Storm by Mike DuncanMortal Republic by Edward J. WattsThe End of the Roman Republic, 146 to 44 BC, by Catherine Steel"The Roman Senate and the Post-Sullan res publica," Historia (Journal of Ancient History) 63:3 (2014) by Catherine SteelRoman Republics by Harriet FlowerThe Art of Forgetting by Harriet FlowerAncestor Masks and Aristocratic Power in Roman Culture by Harriet FlowerChatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

It’s Election Day, but we’re not talking about the campaign. Shane Harris welcomes Tim Naftali back to the show to talk about Americans’ fascination with the presidency. When did the “modern presidency” begin? When did voters and the press become fixated on presidents’ private lives? And what do we get wrong about the nation’s highest office? Naftali, a presidential historian, was last on Chatter in June 2022 to talk about Watergate, a subject on which he’s one of the country’s leading experts. Today’s conversation helps put the momentousness of this year’s election in some historic perspective. Have a listen while you’re standing in line to vote! People, plays, and policies discussed in this conversation include: Theodore Roosevelt, the first modern president https://millercenter.org/president/roosevelt/life-in-brief Oh, Mary! by Cole Escola https://www.ohmaryplay.com/ The presidential “kill list” https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/newly-declassified-document-sheds-light-on-how-president-approves-drone-strikes/2016/08/06/f424fe50-5be0-11e6-831d-0324760ca856_story.html The Jimmy Carter “running” photo https://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2025424_2025864_2025986,00.html Teddy White https://www.nytimes.com/1986/05/16/obituaries/theodore-white-chronicler-of-us-politics-is-dead-at-71.html Read more about Naftali and his work https://www.sipa.columbia.edu/communities-connections/faculty/timothy-naftali