Analyze Scripts

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are happily joined once again by Dr. Zheala Qayyum, child & adolescent psychiatrist extraordinaire and medical director of Emergency Psychiatry Services at Boston Children's Hospital, to analyze the second "Harry Potter" movie. In this film, we begin meeting some extra special supporting characters like Dobby, Moaning Myrtle, Tom Riddle, and the Malfoy family. In this episode, we explore the themes of tween development and self-identity, specifically as it relates to Harry grappling with the "good" (Gryffindor) and "bad" (Slytherin) parts of himself. We also discuss narcissism as it relates to Gilderoy Lockhart, parental expectations as it relates to the Malfoys, and bullying as it relates to Moaning Myrtle, and classism and racism as they relate to Dobby and mudbloods. We also reflect on one of our favorite Dumbledore quotes - "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.” We hope you enjoy!

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Dr. Katrina Furey: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker. And this is analyze Scripts, a podcast.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and tv shows.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

Dr. Katrina Furey: There is so much misinformation out there.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And it drives us nuts.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like with a lay flat airline or a.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Major beauty brand, even better.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And your DSM five, and enjoy.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Hi.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Welcome back to another very special episode of analyze scripts, because one of my favorite attendings and teachers from residency, Gila Kayum, is joining us once again to discuss the second Harry Potter movie, Harry Potter in the Chamber of Secrets. If you haven't listened to our last episode with please, you know, go back in your feed a little bit to find our first episode about Harry Potter and the sorcerer's Stone, because we're going to rebuild on that. And just to remind you. So Gila is the attending psychiatrist at Harvard. Basically, she's the medical director of the emergency Psychiatry Service and the director of the Child and Adolescent Psychiatry Fellowship program. She also remains on staff at Yale University, which is where I met her as my inpatient attending on the child and adolescent unit. So we love her because she's awesome and because she's so good at using fairy tales like Harry Potter to talk about development and themes about child and adolescent psychiatry. So we're just thrilled to have you back.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: No, thank you for having me. And I'm so excited that I get to do something that's dear to my heart and has fascinated me since I was in medical school, so that I'm kind of giving my age away. That's when I read Harry Potter. But to do it with some of my favorite people, so I think there's nothing better.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Awesome. Well, so where do we get started, Portia?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I don't know. I mean, they're back for year two, right? So I think the shock to Harry maybe isn't entirely over because there's, like, new monsters and people that he's meeting every year, but the fact that there is magic out there, I guess I would start with him returning home to the Dursleys, which I have never been happy about. I think we learn later kind of why, but now seeing him being so mistreated and kind of brought all back with the trauma, like, here we are. Know, you don't know Dudley is so amazing. Your parents were bad. It's like all these messages kind of return. So I think we should start there.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I do think it's so realistic, though, unfortunately, right, that know Harry finally finds his place in Hogwarts and these people where he feels safe and loved and special. And what's awesome about Harry is the specialness isn't really what he loves, the know, like, seeking that part out. He just likes feeling secure and loved. And now he's to go back for the summer to this abusive environment. And I just think, unfortunately, that does mirror a lot of kids who are growing up in abusive households that you hope they have a place to go where they can see, like, the world won't always be like this, but he does have to go back, and it totally sucks.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, it's like school, I guess.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah, exactly. And I think similarly we see what happens in many abusive relationships, although this was not intentional and Dobby had a role to play in it, is that you get cut off from your supportive relationships, right. That we're going to bolt your window. You're not going to do the things that bring you joy or magic is not allowed. Your friends don't even care about you to write to you. And all those things that he felt like he got in the first year were just suddenly taken away. And he sort of started believing it when he was like, maybe my friends won't come back, or I'm my own.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Why haven't they written to me?

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: A lot of self doubt, a lot of like, he's still growing in confidence, still thinking about what is real and what's not. And I think the other thing, which sort of contrasts is you go to the jerseys and everything is so proper and everything has to be done this way. I will come and greet them. And then I think one of the stark contrasts is we get introduced to the boroughs, which is a whole different world, and it's still a family. And then it gives you a contrast of the sort of the orderliness, the rigidness, the regimentedness at private drive. And then you go to the chaos of boroughs that is full of love and caring, and yet it has room for the unexpected. Each kid is different and accepted for being dragon trainers and whatever else that they're doing. I think we talked a little about this in the last one, where in such a big family, Ron is a little lost that his attachment style we talked about is a little like, anxious. He doesn't know if he'll get looked over in all of this chaos. But there is just so much curiosity. I think that was one thing that is so starkly different between those two households where the adults in boroughs are fostering curiosity and modeling curiosity for their kids. Like, what is this function of this rubber duck? Yeah, we're so fascinated, and yet there is no room for curiosity or thought in private drive.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I think different types of torture.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: For a young child.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Totally.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think even in maybe a more stable, non abusive home, we see that, right, in kids who maybe their parents have high expectations for them or want them to turn into x, y or z and don't leave room for the child's unique personality or individuality or interests. That can happen even if you're not being abused or neglected. Right. Like Harry. So I thought that was also just a beautiful addition to the story that I think matching kids watching it, even adults watching it, it'll resonate with them.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think it's funny and a little like, well, what else is Mr. Dursley supposed to say when Harry has the cake and it looks like he's doing it and then it goes over his client's wife and then he's, you know, that's my nephew.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: He's very disturbed.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: We didn't want him coming down to non magical people, Muggles. I think sometimes what we don't know is scary or disturbing. But I just thought it was, like, an interesting word choice, disturbed. I guess it fits from a Muggle's perspective of what's going on. And then also just like, they think he's disturbed and they think he's unwell and weird and crazy and bad, too. But I felt bad for Hedwig. We talk usually about people, but being stuck in her little cage, not being allowed to be let out. But, yes, we are introduced to Dobby, and he doesn't seem so great at first, right? He's like all this mischievous stuff. He's this new creature and he's starting to. Right? Like every time he says something not nice about his master or the family he works for, he kind of like self harms, right? So he's like hitting him up on the head with a lamp, banging his hand down. And Harry's like, what are you. Stop. Stop. And I think it's so telling to. Harry's so kind and nurturing, just spirit that we see again through the rest of the movies, especially with Dobby, that he's like, please stop. What are you doing? Please don't do this.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Makes him uncomfortable.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I'm dying to hear what you think of Dobby, Dr. Q. I think Dobby.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And I think it evolves more over the next book movies is. I think it's a bigger question of representation of race and otherness in the books because there's not a lot of focus on race per se. And yet there is in the pure bloods and the Muggles. And then there's even the people who sort of are very thoughtful about how Hagrid and the Weasleys support Muggleborn wizards and witches. There is in wizarding families. There's this neglect and oversight of these elves like nonexistent and invisible. And I think we see in the future books, too that there are characters who really take a lot of issue with sort of this thought about pure bloodedness and yet they're perfectly fine with elves working in their homes. So I just think it's interesting that there is even despite a lot of awareness there's sort of blind spot that Hermione picks up on later in the later books about these elves are being mistreated. But then also you see someone being restricted in what they can do and genuinely care about someone and just how their methods are.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, but that's such a great point. And I thought of that too, in rewatching the movie again and perhaps especially now that I'm older and the times we're living in. It was such an interesting commentary on race and identity. That's like the whole plot of this movie, right? That, you know, Salazar Slytherin left this chamber of secrets with the basilisk that's meant to wipe out all the mudbloods, right? It's basically like the goal is genocide here, right? And we start to see what characters are for this, which ones are against it, who is a Mudblood, but even within that, exactly like what you're saying there's this blind spot to the elves and it's almost like, could be a parallel to what we might call these days, like microaggressions. Like, even if you mean well, the stuff you've grown up with could still be deeply rooted and you got to open your eyes to it. And it's a really interesting way to start introducing that concept to little kids or anyone.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But I think it's really fascinating in terms of storytelling and fairy tales how this big, sometimes difficult topic is presented.

Dr. Katrina Furey: So well in this movie.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And it's so clear. And then you see, we see Draco seeing Harry getting all this attention when he. Lockhart. Right. We'll talk about him. Oh, my God. And Draco's so angry that. How dare Harry be getting all this attention, like, I'm a pure blood. I've been taught that I should be. Right. Like on stage with Lockhart. Why aren't then? You know, then he's terrible to the Dursleys. And then you see his dad walk in, you're like, oh, well, this is why. But you see. And good acting, I guess, with Tom Felton, like as a child, but the rage, he's so angry.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, right. And we really get to meet. Or we start to meet the Malfoy family, right? We don't meet the mom yet whose name is Narcissa, which I always think is interesting. But again, Giela, I'm dying to hear what you think about the depiction of the Malfoys in this.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: It is, actually, I'm really intrigued by that sort of dynamic because I also think, interestingly, I think given my own south asian background, the whole colonialism and the british aristocracy and this sort of eliteness and classism that comes in and sort of, if that's the norm, how awful not to feel special.

Dr. Katrina Furey: For Draco.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yes, right. If this is part of your identity and this is what you've been brought up with, and then suddenly someone comes and challenges what you know. I think one of the most interesting things I was told about child development was if parents do it right, every little child should have a little bit of narcissism going into school, knowing that they're special and that they're the kings and queens of their own little kingdoms. Then they come to school, and now you have to navigate other kings and queens. And I kind of see that happening a little later. For Draco, we would expect that happening earlier in school age, but now he's sort of met someone who can actually, he can find threatening.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And so it sounds like what you're saying, too, is that hopefully, if you have good enough parents, they've instilled that healthy degree of narcissism in you, right, where you are confident, you do feel special, you feel unconditionally loved. And they're not the ones challenging it. Maybe at first, but then hopefully they can help you wrap your head around it and say, like, you are the best to us and there's other people around and their needs matter too. Right? You have to balance that with some empathy, altruism, integrity. And it's when those things are out of balance that I think we start to see personality pathology either way, whether it's more the narcissistic way or it's more of the know avoidant kind of way.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, no, that's true, because we see it again later in the movie with Hermione and Draco when she's challenging him a. She challenges him academically and know a mudbud, but we also see her directly challenge him about his father buying the team all brooms and like, well, that's how you got on the team. And harry didn't need know, like, how dare you call me out and take my crown off my head? And you're right. Like, someone who I consider lesser. And I think then we see them really kind of throughout the movies, which we will cover go head to head a lot. But I think she really grinds his gears.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That scene was hard to watch, even now. And just, you could tell, like, the word mudblood is like a racial slur. And they were all just really shocked he would even say it. It's one of those things where it's, know, maybe they all kind of sense. He thinks that. But then to be so. Just willing to say it so aggressively and in such a mean way. And then you see Harry not really understand, which, again, what a thoughtful way to introduce that concept, right. For him as a real outsider, not to get it. And now they're having to explain it to him again, really, I think mirrors trying to start to explain hard facts about the reality of the world to small children as they start to see things and ask questions.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And I think that's actually one of the loveliest things about the Harry Potter movies and books, is that it parallels real life so well. Like, these kind of growing pains and experiences are so normal for kids in schools, and it is developmentally appropriate. Like, kids who have seen racism or racial slurs being modeled in their homes would have no qualms about saying it outside.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I think that's kind of where Draco is coming from, is we know that the father put the book in the cauldron, so he's been exposed to these, so it's not different for him. But like you said, for Harry, it's completely unknown. And then just how kids navigate this, like, their groups and their rivalries and their exams and their classes, I think because it's so close to real life, that it really resonates with. It may be a different school, but a. It exists in our world, even if it is magical. But I think the relatability of all the challenges that these kids are seeing and experiencing is just so relatable for kids.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, no, I agree. Even thinking of just being silly and wanting a letter, I don't think I wanted or thought that I would be in Narnia. Right. You were saying this before, Sheila, or I didn't think that I was going to be in the Lord of the Rings, but I feel like Harry Potter is so different because it is in the real world. Right. And I was like, well, maybe I could get a letter.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I could go to the school. And I think, again, that resonates. And especially watching them grow up, like, we all can reflect back on childhood moments and betrayals in friendships early on and kids being not so nice on the playground. It's like that's all so real. And whether it's playing Quidditch or playing soccer, it's like it's the same feelings.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly. And it's interesting. In Harry Potter, I think, Jaylee, you were saying this before we started recording a little bit. Know the world of Hogwarts and magic is existing in parallel to reality or like the Mudblood world. And in this movie, we start to see what happens when these two worlds start to collide. And it's almost like an interesting metaphor maybe, for what it's like for Harry to be going back and forth, or maybe for any of them to go back and forth but know, dangerous it is for other people to start to recognize that there is this magical world. It kind of reminds me of how we talk about aliens. Are they there? Are they not there? And just all that stuff.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You. We'd probably think they were an alien, right? Someone doing magic or seeing a car.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Flying through the sky.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Seven muggles saw that.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. So they were, I'm assuming, right? Probably like obliviated, which makes me think of our dear friend, which I know. Katrina, you are dying to talk about Lockhart. And his best skill is apparently obliviating all these witches and wizards who he's stolen stories from to make him.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Sheila, please, please share with us your deepest, darkest thoughts about him.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Well, I think when I first see him, the most interesting thing is just how in awe Hermione is and all the girls and the little ones. And when he comes to know, Gildray Lockhart aside, I thought it was just very interesting to see how in this book, you see crushes develop a little. And even for Ron and Hermione, at the end, when she gets unpetrified, she goes, Harry. But there's this awkwardness between Ron and Hermione, which was really adorable.

Dr. Katrina Furey: They just, like, shake hands. They're like, I don't know what to do.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So cute.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: So I just felt like this was very interesting about narcissism that we were thinking about narcissist. But really, Gildoria Lockhart is. Remember, there was one classification somewhere in one of the papers about different types of narcissists, and there was the exhibitionistic narcissist, which was all about, look at me, I'm performing, so I kind of see him that way 100%. But also you see the compensatory narcissism of I'm not good enough. So how can I make myself be more likable, more inflated, more worthwhile? Clearly, he can't even do simple dueling spells.

Dr. Katrina Furey: No, right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Well, I could have stopped you if I wanted to, but for the purpose of instruction, I chose not to. It's like fun.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But honestly, though, what a classic narcissistic defense, right? That's exactly what someone with these traits or full blown narcissistic personality disorder, that's exactly how they would respond, right? The fact that in the film, he is so handsome and showy, and there's a big crowd, and again, he can only associate with Harry Potter, right? With other fancy, special people. Not Draco, even. He's not special. Know, it's just like so on point. And then when we learn that actually it's all a big farce, actually, he's been stealing other people's ideas and then obliviating their minds, that's like the ultimate gaslighting, right? It's just so perfect. I just loved the depiction of this. As we keep doing this podcast, we keep talking about narcissism so much, and I'm like, why are we seeing this everywhere? But we really are seeing it in so much different types of media. And this was just such a good spot on, I thought, representation of it, and even, like, the common defense mechanisms and the inner wound, it was just perfect.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And the most, I thought cute part was when he gets obliviated himself. He's so nice.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I know.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Imagine someone without that narcissism if you take that away from him. He was lovely.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. And it's so interesting, right, that it's like children who are taking it away from him, right? Who can finally challenge him. And I think that does maybe even speak to. There's always good inside, I hope maybe.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: You see, I think.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I don't want.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: To say, like, the good side of narcissism. You see the likable side of narcissism through the whole movie, and you're like, oh, well, it's not that bad. But then when he, all of a sudden, it's like his mask comes off when he is about to obliviate them and take credit. And it's so ugly and different from before, just being showy and almost. And then there it is. There's the calculated kind of manipulative place that, I don't know, expectative side.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yes.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And that's the side that I think people who are in relationships with people with narcissistic traits see that other people on the outside don't see. And I'm sure in all of our work we have worked with children, adolescent adults who are coping with and trying to process the pain of that. Right. Because then it's not just when you're relating to someone like that. They manipulate you to start doubting your own sense of them and sense of reality. Then you start doubting it and then it's like everyone around you unwittingly contributes to that because they don't see the real person. Right. So again, just like beautiful representation of that.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And I think it also points to the difference between adults and children in this, how they approached it. Because you see Snape, he knew what this guy was about. I mean, he did his way of sort of showing what it was like, but he never confronted him. And then you say McGonagall going and say time has come for you to do what you're best at, right? And then he tries to run away. But none of the adults, even if they know what he's about, confronted him, kind of played along. And I think that is also very relevant to people that you are around who might have narcissism. And people just tend to appease them and work with them because what else are you going to do? And yet they can anything to lose and they were able to call him.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Out and maybe even building on that. That's so fascinating. I think it also speaks to the danger in confronting someone with these traits. And I would say he also has some sociopathic traits. Perhaps if you're going to obliviate children for your own gain, there's a danger that comes with confronting someone like this. Right? It's going to provoke what we call a narcissistic injury or narcissistic rage. Sometimes all that means is they yell at you or they stonewall you, they never talk to you again, but sometimes they could actually hurt you, like we see here, where he's then going to obliviate all of them. And maybe Snape and McGonagall as adults with fully developed frontal lobes somewhere in there, appreciate that. So they know how to toe the line, but children don't right especially maybe at their age they're still coping with I would think like that very rigid sense of right and wrong and maybe they're struggling to see like well why don't you understand this is wrong so stop doing very. That can be dangerous to confront people like, yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I think it's interesting that Dumbledore who's kind of to me like all knowing goes along with it and I think the other professors take their cues from him and I wonder if Dumbledore in that moment was like leave or we're done with you. I think the other professors would have jumped on and been like yes, we don't like you or you're a fraud. But he had a very interesting, he didn't really say anything. Yeah. And he's powerful and certainly more powerful and is the person that I think could absolutely send him on his way without really repercussions and he didn't.

Dr. Katrina Furey: He also probably hired. Exactly. Were they desperate?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Maybe that position, right.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: It's cursed.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And Lockhart probably thought well I could do it because I'm the best that.

Dr. Katrina Furey: There ever was and I could imagine we've come to find out. I don't think we know it yet but how much Snape wants it and I bet there's some tension there with Dumbledore not letting him take know. We see that tension with Snape come out with every single defense against the dark arts teacher over time.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: True.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And then to Dumbledore's point there was a lot more stuff happening that I think he was tied up in maybe like that children getting know being sent to Azkaban his own position being threatened. And I think that's the other thing. I draw the parallel of Lockhart's popularity to social media which is like if someone this popular says something about you at this juncture it's going to really impact your credibility because we have so many followers.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: True.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh that's a really good point. That's a really good point. I thought the supporting characters in this movie were all so fascinating in their own ways. Like we've talked about some of them already. Dobby Lockhart, the Malfoy family. I also want to make sure we leave time to talk about moaning Myrtle, Fox, the Phoenix and Tom Riddle. But before we get there, Gila I was hoping you could speak more to the father son dynamic between Draco and Lucius Malfoy. And again I think probably intentional that they're know, white blonde british men.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey: As you're speaking to these cultural and racial differences like perfect casting it was lovely.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I think the way they selected both of them and sort of Lucius's haughtiness and arrogance that comes through. But it also shows you his narcissism. Like the minute he finds that he was scammed by Harry for Dobby, his wand comes out.

Dr. Katrina Furey: There's that narcissistic injury. There's. It is.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: You took something from me without my permission. How dare you? And then you also have this underlying dynamic of the Slytherin family their sort of loyalty to Salazar Slytherin, Voldemort being Slytherin's heir, who had opened the chamber of Secrets. It is all this loyalty and alliance and the way I would see that dynamic of it is something like father son passed on. But I think in the later books you also see the tension the Malfoy parents have in trying to keep their son. The dilemmas that they're sort of poor Draco is put in and this challenging situations that they are sort of stuck with, this alliance that they've formed. I also sort of draw the parallel of these are sort of the loyalties and belonging that people form to different groups that families can sort of inherit. I think one of the very poignant quotes I once read was that when we're born, we're given our name, an identity, a religion, a race, and we spend our whole lives trying to defend them. We chose none of it.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That's so powerful and so true. I was just thinking too, like gender, even in this.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And you have no control or choice in the matter. So there is a lot of, I think, modeling for Draco from Lucius. But I think later on, maybe not in this book, you kind of see their struggles of trying to know that your son belongs in this circle and how are you going to keep him safe knowing it's dangerous and all those things can be potentially fatal for him. And I think similarly with Voldemort and Salazar Slytherin, that whole thing about true blood and belonging to the true blood family. Similarly, Salazar Slytherin created the chamber of secrets for that reason. All of that just points towards this sort of propagation. Yet it is very covert, it is hidden, it is done on the sides, which is just such a lovely parallel to what happens with racism that, yes, when you give it permission, it becomes very overt and yet there are so many people who have it and maybe are just acculturated and this is their norm that they don't realize it and when given the opportunity, it comes up. But in other circumstances, it's very hidden.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And even it's just such a beautiful visual representation of that. Right. Even the fact that it's, like in the bathroom. Right. Like, you can turn on the faucet and it'll flood or you can turn it off. It can trickle or you can go down the tube. Right. It's so beautifully masterfully done.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: What do we think about snakes, right. And, like, the symbolism of just, like, the monster being a snake. The symbol to talk to snakes, Harry. And then in book one, we see that right away kind of with him hearing at the zoo.

Dr. Katrina Furey: At the zoo.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's a good animal that they chose.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Because snakes are kind of like. A lot of people are scared of them. They're slimy, they're slithery. They kind of catch it by surprise. They can bite you and hurt you sometimes they're totally harmless. A quote that really stuck out to me in this movie was when Hermione told Harry hearing voices no one else can hear isn't a good sign, even in the wizarding world.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: True. Which is why I think that's the parallel of how close to reality that whole place is.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Imagine hearing them.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, Harry. I mean, like, all of a sudden you're hearing this whooshing through the wall and then you're hearing this voice and everyone else is just like, what are you talking about? I mean, what a challenging ordeal to go through. And then it is real, right. Which is kind of like, thank goodness. Because then there's maybe other concerns going on if it's not. But that's hard shouldering again. It's like he's out on this island, right? He's Harry Potter.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: He's unique.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And now it's, again, like this thing that makes him unique. Not really in a good way in this movie.

Dr. Katrina Furey: In a scary way. And I think we start to see him grappling with the good and bad dark parts of himself which it seems like he shares with Voldemort. Right? And we start to see that inner tension he has. Like, should I been a slytherin? Am I a Gryffindor? As if it's so black or white. We start to see that such a beautiful representation.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And I think similarly to your point, like snakes, I know, from a psychodynamic perspective, have a very different meaning. But I think the one thing about it is that the places they can penetrate and go. And I think that was with the basilisk that you have Hogwarts, the safe space of where magic is. This is sort of this magic central for education and learning and yet it is penetrated by evil. Forces from within and they're lurking. They're again, in the shadows. I think that's about snakes, is they hide in dark places. So I think there is this whole veil of. I read an article about this veil of concealment and deceit and deception that is very prevalent throughout all of the chamber of secrets because it's a chamber of secrets, right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's in the name, literally.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: The deception, like the diary, deceives Jenny and it also kind of speaks to the power of words which can really influence people. Then the deception with the polyjuice that they're able to get some information, but they have to conceal, know, deceive, concealment under the invisibility cloak and concealment in a way of like Gildor Lockhart concealing his real identity and the truth about himself. So a lot of general themes about deception and concealment. And then I think the symbolism of the snake is also in the Garden of Eden about deception. So I think there are a lot of different themes and motifs and parallels around that. But to your point about the sort of ambivalence around your identity and belonging and I think between him and Voldemort, the core of the wands are the same. They are both parcel mouths. They are both, like, raised somewhat by Muggles. He was in an orphanage. He was with the Dursleys. So very similar life experiences that they start showing to where Dumbledore will say that it's the choices that you make that make all the difference. You can see that with all these similarities you can actually show kids and adults that really, just because we say someone had a very different upbringing or a difficult start or has certain traits, it's not a life sentence. And what a beautiful message to give that even if the things are against you and you have seen other role models or people that you sort of can identify with have very different paths that are not ideal, you can still carve a different one with the choices that you make.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. That's so beautiful. And I think it's so important. I'd imagine, especially when you're working with kids and adolescents who are coming from difficult backgrounds, whatever they might be, even adults. But I think maybe especially when you're still forming your identity to know that you don't have to follow this path, you can make different choices. And that even though there might be parts of you that remind you of. I'm just thinking about, like a parent, maybe an abusive parent or you get angry and lash out, that doesn't mean you're just like them. And I think that's something that's so painful for people to process and work through when they're trying to recover from an upbringing like that.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And I think that also speaks to corrective parenting like you have McGonagall and Dumbledore in a way that is a very stark contrast to Molly Weasley and also Petunia Dursley and Uncle Vernon where when they think they're going to get expelled and Professor McGonagall's response is, you're not getting expelled. But I must impress upon you the seriousness of what you've done. So they are really sort of the modeling of good parenting of they are trying to protect their kids but they are not fighting their fights for them. They are not going and intervening in every conflict. They are giving them their space to have their own adventures, come to their own conclusions, figure things out but still being sort of neutral, supportive, guiding, wise.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But they don't give the kids the answers right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And still.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Think.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I wish that we got a little window into where when Ginny, I'm assuming, goes and meets her family or maybe sees her parents after the chamber. And just like I would imagine the support that she receives because she goes on to be appearingly a secure person. And I think it's even thinking of the build up before. I'm sure she's felt loved and important in the way that she can with so many siblings. And she's the only girl that she's okay. Even though dealing with this traumatic experience and having this relationship with Tom Riddle. Right. For almost the whole school year where she's writing and just thinking about all. I'm just so curious about how that affected her and why she was so susceptible to it. I think she got this special book and finally she had her own thing and this person wanted to talk to her. And of course, for her, I think it's just like a smart match which Lucius, I'm sure, knew.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes, he did. These people can sniff it out, I always say.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And it also kind of sort of parallels how Draco is trying to put Harry and Hermione down how Lucius was trying to put the Weasleys down by sort of planting that book.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Book.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And he knew he would get Arthur Weasley into trouble because of all of this. And that was sort of the goal of if Jenny gets into trouble so there's bigger players and yet you have the little ones who have to go through these experiences.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Again, like you said, very covert and sort of maybe playing like a long game and using the children really? As pawns in his own game, which is pretty nasty.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right in line with narcissism. Right in. So, you know, before we wrap up, Gila, I'm also dying to hear what you think about moaning Myrtle. One of my favorite characters of all time.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Love moaning Myrtle.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Love her.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I just love the morbidity. Like, I was in my cubicle thinking of death.

Dr. Katrina Furey: It's like, I don't know if you saw the Barbie movie that came out last summer.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Did you see it when they're all.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Dancing and she's like, y'all ever think about dying? And everyone's like, we can't go there.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: But what I took from Morning Myrtle was sort of this invisibility of not being seen even after death. Like, just come and throw another book at me. Imagine the distress in which she died was crying. Like, she didn't even see who it was because she was crying and she was distraught. And just how lonely she is in that bathroom that she says, if you die, you can come.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And so different from nearly headless Nick, who's also a ghost and walking around, but almost revered. Right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like the crazy one who's up to no good. She's just in her bathroom being sad. But I really do want to say Harry's response, and I caught it this time, that I watched it with my mental health cap on. Ron is like, ew. And Harry's like, okay, sure, myrtle. Like, that's great. And he's just so kind and so just. I don't know. It's amazing, resilient.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think he can tolerate that because he knows what that feels like. Right. Like, he just naturally, I think, will be more open to that. Maybe not even realize it's a strength.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: The rejection, the isolation. And I think it's just such a close parallel to kids who are being bullied, school, who go and hide in the bathrooms. It's just so real. But it also kind of tells you that that is such an impressionable time in someone's life that these insults, she could not get over them after death either. So that was part of her sadness. And the Persona she carried was she wasn't seen. Or if she was, it was not in a very positive way.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And those words really leave a mark indefinitely in her case.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, it's sad again, but an important.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Message for kids to learn, maybe, like, as you're watching the movie, the kindness.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And also, I think that's the other theme that comes up through the movie where you talked about Hermione sort of standing up to Draco is that kids facing bullying, how do you do that? How do you stand up when to walk away versus when to actually address it? I think they're just beautifully highlighted in a very subtle way, but it is modeling for kids and this is one adverse outcome. And yet here are some good, strong role models for you to see who are going to come across that bully.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I think even a good role model for parents as I'm watching it now as a parent with my children who are younger than these kids in the movie but are already starting to face some of these issues. We don't live in an ideal world where you can just resolve conflict with your words alone or there's always an adult around who can intervene. Like, yes, that's the hope. But when it's not, you have to start talking to your kids about, well.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: What do you do?

Dr. Katrina Furey: And those are hard conversations to have as a parent.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, but you're good at it, Dr. Fury. Yeah, I hope so. We'll see.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Come back in about 15 years. We'll see how everything's going.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Well.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Before we wrap up, are there any other lingering thoughts or themes we want to make sure we address? I think the only other one on my mind was Fox the Phoenix and how I'm going to call her a she. I don't remember Fox's gender. It doesn't really matter. But I've decided it's the girl like us. How she saves the know.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And Harry being a true Gryffindor, right? And that's what Dumbledore kind of reminds him of with the sword and then you called Fox, which means you must have been, I think it's like true of heart or you are putting yourself before someone else's needs to save. You know, thank goodness for Dumbledore because I think he really anchored Harry. And I did make the choice, right, to be in Gryffindor. I asked the hat and he was like, that's the difference which we mentioned before about the importance of our choices, despite what's sometimes in our environments or sometimes traits that we might have. And Fox is know, I love that they grow old and kind of like turn into ash and Harry's like, oh, my. Like, what's happening? Then the of out of death and darkness comes life and good things and rebirth.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, it's really beautiful.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Thanks for reminding us of that. That's a better way to end than exactly some think.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah, I think too.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Just again, this movie and all of Harry Potter really touches on the good and bad parts in all of us. How we all have good and bad parts, and that's okay. And that, like, if you look up the traits of a slytherin or a Gryffindor, which, you know, so slytherin, they know ambition, resourcefulness, determination, cleverness. That all sounds great when you channel it in the right way, but you could channel it in this sort of elitist, villainous way that Salazar, Slytherin and some others have sort of evolved into. And same thing with, know, bravery, honor, loyalty, boldness. Again, channel it in a good way.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Or you could kind of become reckless.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Self righteous, have a short temper, always.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Want to be the hero.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That can get you into trouble sometimes, but it's like a double sided sword. Is that a thing where it could be good or bad, depending on how you channel it. And again, that speaks to the choices that we make and so important for kids to hear, and I think I heard a quote somewhere, I'm going to butcher it now, probably where I think we're not responsible for the trauma we might be born into or grow up in, but we are responsible for then kind of what we do with it and how to move forward. And that's a really important point I think we all probably use in our work with people and maybe just as humans walking the earth.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Exactly.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And I just know, to your point, the fact. Well, I'll say two things. One is not all slytherins are bad, which is, I think, something Harry bought into when he was like, please don't put me in Slytherin when he was under the sorting hat. But really, I think that to your .1 of the biggest things about the loyalty, the sacrifice, and I think that was one of the things that, throughout the whole series, helped Harry differentiate himself from Voldemort, is the sense of love we've internalized, which is so important for kids and us as adults and human beings, is to know we were loved, even if our parents are not around, even if those people who loved us are not in our lives. Just that sense of being loved can really change the life of a human being, which is something Voldemort did not just helps anchor him into. Yes, if I was loved, I can sacrifice my love for others. I can be loyal to others.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And I think every child just wants to belong to Hogwarts.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. And I think Harry, although he lost his parents so early, I think it's deep down he knows he was loved. And he's constantly told that over and over. Right. About his life story. So even though he didn't have it for very long. Somewhere in there, he knows it, and he's reminded of that, which is so important for kids.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And when you don't have it, you're really vulnerable to nefarious people out. Oh, gosh, what a great way to start my day. This is just such a treat. Thank you so much for joining us, Sheila. We love you for all the.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I guess, you know.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Do you want to tell everyone where they can find you on instagram?

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Sure. It's zheeque and hope to be part of these in the future.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my gosh, yes.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: We would love to have Harry Potter journey.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes, we're on a journey, too. And again, thank you so much for listening to this episode. You can find us at Analyze Scripts podcast on Instagram, TikTok, and on YouTube. Now if you want to watch this episode. And we will see you again next Monday for our next episode.

Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Great.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Bye.

Dr. Katrina Furey: All right, bye.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review, and subscribe.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That's fine.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.