Analyze Scripts

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are thrilled to be joined by one of Dr. Furey's favorite teachers from residency, Dr. Zheala Qayyum. Dr. Qayyum is the Training Director for the Child and Adolescent Psychiatry Fellowship Program and the Medical Director of the Emergency Psychiatry Services at Boston Children's Hospital. She has published on the use of fairy tales in teaching child psychiatry and joins us to discuss the first "Harry Potter" movie. In this episode, we discuss many interesting themes including the psychological effects of early childhood trauma and neglect, the attachment styles of the three main characters, and the importance of friendship in identity formation. We also reflect on the mirror of Erised and the importance of exploring dark feelings and themes in childhood from a safe space, such as through this magical film. We hope you enjoy as much as we enjoyed speaking with Dr. Qayyum!

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[00:10] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fieri, a psychiatrist. And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker. And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows. Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends. There is so much misinformation out there.

[00:30] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And it drives us nuts.

[00:31] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like with a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better. So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn and your DSM Five and enjoy.

[00:50] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Don'T.

[01:17] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: For a very special episode of Analyze Scripts, because one of my favorite attendings for my residency training is joining us to talk about one of my favorite movies, harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, or The Philosopher's Stone, depending on which country you're watching it in. So today we have Dr. Gila Kayum, the training director for the Child and Adolescent Psychiatry Fellowship program and the medical director of the emergency Psychiatry services at Boston Children's Hospital. She holds faculty appointments at Yale School of Medicine and Harvard Medical School, and she's the associate director of medical student education and Psychiatry. She's also serving as a lieutenant colonel in the United States Army Reserves Medical Corps and deployed to Afghanistan and was later mobilized in support of the COVID-19 response to New York. Dr. Kayoom has published on the topics of medical education, autism spectrum disorders, inpatient treatment of early psychosis, and LGBTQ, plus youth, the use of fairy tales in teaching child psychiatry, and the risk of youth suicide and firearms. She has a particular interest in the areas of supervision and mentorship, which she's so good at psycho oncology and palliative care. And I feel like we always called her Dr. Q. I guess I'm allowed to call her by her first name because I'm a grown up now, but I still feel kind of funny about it. But you were one of my favorite mentors, and I feel like you're really special because sometimes when you have a mentor, it kind of feels like they're trying to mold you in their image. But I always felt like you just wanted what was best for me, and you were so encouraging, and I just always loved working with you, and you hold a really special place in my heart.

[02:58] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So this is really fun to talk about.

[03:00] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Harry Potter no, this is, like, making me teary. This is just a lovely intro I have gotten. And it's just such a thrill that the people that you invest in grow up to be such amazing child or adult or psychiatrists, but more so, just people. And you're very dear to me as well. The best part of being an educator and a clinician is that not only are you trying to sort of transfer your skills or your wisdom, but you get to see your kids grow and become they're meant to be and their best versions. And if you think you're a part of that journey, I think that's just the most amazing privilege.

[03:50] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Well, I know you were for me, and I know you were for a lot of my co residents, so it's so true. So I am dying to talk to you about this movie, given your interest in using fairy tales to explore development. So I just kind of want to jump right in and hear what you think about the first Harry Potter movie and kind of what jumps out at you.

[04:13] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: So I think one of the loveliest things about Harry Potter was that it was a modern fairy tale, and we've had a lot of lovely fantasy series, but there was something very special about Harry Potter that just captured everyone, whether it was kids or adults. It's interesting, whenever I ask people what their favorite children's book is, inevitably, for a lot of them, it's Harry Potter. And I read it in med school. So I was much older, but I still stood in line at midnight yes, where I was standing next to like, ten year olds in their robes, and I was like, Am I in the right place? But you felt like you were in the right place. And I think that's what it communicated was it was or is a modern fairy tale for all ages. It just has that essence of a fairy tale, that it means something different to different people at whatever stage of development or life they're in. So a child can interpret it in their own way and have things that they resonate with. And as adults, we might find things that resonate to us, whether based on the hero's journey, these ordeals and call to action and your helpers that bring you along, but also the trepidations, the challenges, the times you doubt yourself when things are there. How do you overcome challenges and this power of transformation through a journey and a story that you're not the same person that you started off as, but with all of the things that you've had to experience? How does that evolve and transform you till you come full circle in some way? Not the same person that left, but so much more wiser grown. I think it's the transformative journey that we see from the first book that started, but there are these just themes that just feel like so relevant to today about loss and difficulty and when you're seeing this drive for power around you and how do you fit in the whole picture. And we usually have a reluctant protagonist in many stories that is not fully sure they want to take on the adventure and the call for action, and yet they do. But I think most importantly for me, the biggest thing was the importance of hope and friends.

[07:04] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, I totally agree. And it's funny you mentioned hearkening back to standing in line at midnight at, like, Borders Books or wherever you were. I totally did the same thing. I think I was in middle school and then high school. But it is really fascinating how Harry Potter and other fairy tales like it. But I feel like especially Harry Potter, it is such a cultural, communal enjoyment and not just in American culture, but certainly worldwide. It's just such a really cool thing that it just really spans ages, genders, cultures, nationalities, languages. Everyone loves it, right? And I feel like this movie rewatching it now as an adult with my children was so meaningful and fun. So I have a seven year old and a four year old and they were just enraptured by it. They wouldn't stop talking the whole time. They wouldn't take their eyes off and this isn't like a cartoon, so they're still at the ages where really it's cartoons that catch their attention for two and a half hours. But this one did, and that was really interesting to me and really special. And I love some of their commentary. Like, with her, MayAny always raising her hand. My daughter, which I was so happy, said she's got a really big brain. And I was like, yes, she know. And then when Draco came on the scene very early on, my son was like, oh, he's a bully. And I was just you know, it's just really cool to kind of see kids watching it too.

[08:40] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. I think it's worth mentioning something interesting. When I was starting to read the books before the music, the movies had started kind of coming out. I remember very distinctly the religious organization that I was a part of at the time was very split with people thinking that you shouldn't be reading it. It's magic. It's witchcraft. Witchcraft. And then the other half being like, if you know the story, it's like this good versus evil. Good always triumphs. There's hope. There's, like you were saying, friendships. I mean, it's such a positive message. And there's so many interesting.

[09:23] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I don't.

[09:23] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Know, like, spiritual parallels and parallels throughout all of the books. But I think it was just an interesting time to be know, hearing this spoken series is bad or evil and then reading them. Know, in my family, we were very pro Harry Potter and loving the messages. And I think that was just like I don't know. I'm sure some other people might have had that experience.

[09:45] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Oh, I totally remember.

[09:48] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Right.

[09:48] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, we come to see this boy in, I would say, a pretty abusive home with a lot of neglect. And I think it's funny watching it or thinking about it now versus in. Like, I'm curious what even your kids picked up of the scenes. The parents certainly seem mean and right dismissive. And you picked that up even as a child, like something not right. Why does Dudley receive all of these gifts and Harry not his clothing?

[10:18] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, my kids were asking about that?

[10:21] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like why are they so mean to?

[10:22] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Why is he living under the stairs? They certainly were asking those questions.

[10:29] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah, no, I think it's a really lovely depiction of how prevalent and difficult it is for kids that have neglect. And I think also it really sort of from starting from him being under the stairs and just watching Dudley get 36 presents and counting and him thinking about, like he has to get hand me downs to go to school and what that would be like. Just that differential that was created and that sense of otherness or I don't belong or I'm not good enough. It really, I think, beautifully highlights how a child will internalize that, because you see that then play out throughout, which partly keeps him humble when everybody thinks he's this amazing everybody knows him, but he's coming from where? Nobody. Knows anything about him. And he held on to that for a very long time and it really changed his I think we see him work through it, but his sense of belief and faith in his own abilities and his self because they told him he wasn't good enough for a good eleven years. And that sense of feeling like you're worth something that he didn't get initially. And how does one young child actually grow to develop that? Partly it kept him humble in the face of, I don't know, magician dumb or stardom or whatever that was that he got later on. But also, it really impeded his ability to rely on other people. And we see. This in the later books as well, but whenever he has to do something, he's very like the avoidant attachment style. I can't trust people to be there for me. And we know later in the books there are other losses that sort of reinforce that for him. But he embarks on everything on his own and working with others and trusting others comes very, very it's very challenging for him, comes much later.

[12:52] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And I like that you brought up his attachment style. Can you explain a little bit what avoided attachment is or the kind of kids or adults we might see that in and how Harry either fits in or doesn't quite fit in.

[13:09] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: So the avoidant attachment style is when a young child has inconsistent caregiving where their needs may not be consistently met. And so rather than clinging to their caregiver to get their needs met, they're like avoiding contact with them because they don't know are they coming, are they going, or are they going to be there. So the child starts to avoid that contact and doesn't get need or avoids contact with the caregiver to get soothed and self regulated. So we see the same thing, that since the Attachment is our template for forming relationships, that we carry on in life, we see Harry particularly later on as he's growing older, that even in adolescence, whenever there is a challenge, he goes off on his own rather than relying on anybody else because he doesn't know. Are people going to really be there for him or not? Are they going to leave? Are they going to neglect him? So he might as well do that for himself and just go off on his own. So that sense of avoiding closeness with people because they might leave or not be there for you, is that sense that avoidant children internalize and so they don't keep looking for closeness with people. It's good that we see Harry work through this over a great many books, which also tells you that it runs in parallel with the life experience of a young child who's had early life neglect and avoidant attachment style might need a lot of reinforcement of positive interactions to say, no, you can rely on other people. If you do get close to people, it'll be okay. And yet loss is a very, I think, integral part of our human experience and life. And for an avoidant child, there is that risk that it just might reinforce that belief that people are not going to be there for them.

[15:18] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And in addition to Harry having that early childhood neglect and abuse, he also had early loss of his parents, who seem like lovely caregivers, who were likely very attuned to his needs, at least as far as we can tell, and that he was present for their murder. And so I was really curious about your take on that, given around the age they depict that and then what it must have been like for him at age eleven to start learning the truth about that loss at the same time as he's learning their loss is why he's famous or special. I just imagine that's got to be so confusing.

[16:03] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Absolutely. And I think that's such a lovely point of there's so much magic instilled in that power, of that parental love that he carried with him that it literally burned. Professor Squirrel.

[16:22] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[16:23] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: It was so powerful. I think it does show, though, however, that it was at a very sort of vulnerable time period in his life when that death occurred. He was still a baby, and we're thinking, like, till from infancy to toddlerhood, maybe the first part went well when his parents were attuned and taking care of him, but later on, and still in that very vulnerable time frame, he had a lot of neglect. And so as you're entering into your preteen years, your sense of, how do I relate with my peers? Who am I in relationship with them? Will they accept me as? We're thinking about later, latency age and early preteens going into your identity formation, who you are is so sort of determined by who are the people in your life? Who brought you here? What is your story? How did you start? And I remember as a child, my mom would tell me stories about, well, when you were little we did this things I wouldn't remember. But still you create these memories based on the things that your parents tell you as well when you're younger. But those things are so important in our development, and now he had to figure that out on his own. Who was he? What were his parents like? That question of when he goes and sees his father's name on the trophy room and he's like, I didn't know he was a Seeker. There's just so many knowns for him to figure out who he is because he doesn't know where he's coming from, and your legacy or your lineage or what are the wonderful stories about how amazing you are. Your parents tell you he never had that. And now he has to create his own narrative about who he is, which is the whole process through the book.

[18:26] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And speaking of like, identity formation, he went from being told that you're such a burden, you're unwanted. Your parents were horrible, they were weird or strange, to being praised or whoa, Ron's reaction to it's. You with the scar on the train, know, having all of this wealth suddenly and this importance in this world, it's just so interesting. You had written down with Hagrid, like him just going with that to this magical place that if somebody had told an eleven year old me, I think, and I'm hopefully that I'm securely attached, I would have been afraid to go with Hagrid.

[19:08] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[19:09] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: This big, burly, giant, half giant man who's telling me all these things that we're going to go to this magical place. I think for a securely attached child, they probably wouldn't have gone. But he didn't have any attachments. And then I think anything is better than living with the directly to finally.

[19:29] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Take him out of that situation.

[19:31] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Right.

[19:31] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It's like almost like this savior has come to rescue him. What were your thoughts about that, Dr. Q? The way he so know, latched onto Hagrid?

[19:41] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah, I think just like Portia said, it's like that insecure attachment, there's nothing to hold him there. But he's also, I think, like you talked about at a point where he's thinking about things and his life. If he's going to go to the same school as Dudley, what is that going to be? He's getting into trouble constantly. And imagine the message you internalize after you're told that everything you do is wrong or you're a bad kid, and you get told that long enough, you start believing it. So maybe it wasn't such a far fetched thing to say, I'm going and I'm taking off.

[20:19] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

[20:20] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: What's the worst thing that can happen whenever anything I do isn't good anyway?

[20:27] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right? And I think we see that in clinical work. And probably you see a lot more, given your line of work, in kids who maybe will go off with not safe people. That sort of increases their vulnerability for those very situations.

[20:43] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Because at the core of it, every kid just wants to belong.

[20:48] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

[20:49] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And so if it was what Hagrid said, is that's where you belong? He hasn't had that sense of belonging at the Dursleys. So he will try. And go and find if he belongs somewhere else and what other people.

[21:09] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And he does find.

[21:10] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I feel like I'm going to cry.

[21:11] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Talking about Harry Potter and also just thinking about Hagrid is like, I just love Hagrid. He's such a gentle giant, but I couldn't think of a better person to come scoop up Harry. Right. Like, even just imagining him sort of putting him in the little sidecar, he's, like, nice and cozy and secure and contained and I hope just feels safe next to this big old guy who.

[21:40] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Stood up to the dursleys, right? Chased found him. I remember my blood boiling even watching the movie again or rereading the book when they keep taking his know you know, it's such.

[21:58] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: His letter.

[21:59] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, that's the one thing he has.

[22:02] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: But then Hogwarts is like, well, we'll send you more. We're not going to give up. And I would imagine for, like, how wonderful. That must feel like, wow, they really.

[22:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Are trying to get to me.

[22:13] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: No one has wanted me like that before. And they're being like Hogwarts or whoever. Dumbledore's love for him is so transcendent and powerful that it wins. Out against the neglect of the know.

[22:29] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Just beautiful and sort of how teary Hagrid was when he was first dropping him off when he was a baby and dumbledore saying it's not goodbye for.

[22:42] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Oh my gosh I feel like, that's how I am. Every year the new school year starts, you're just like, oh, my gosh, they're growing up.

[22:51] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then hermione I think it's worth mentioning. So she has, it seems, securely attached, supportive parents. But is living as a muggle her whole life until receiving these letters and going to Hogwarts and then learning that she is like a mudblood and that she is not good enough. Her blood is like, dirty. And yet she is so brilliant, and I think that's such an interesting reversal of her and Harry's experience. She's still really smart, but it's like it's not good know are calling her names like Draco. And I don't think that she experienced that. Prior know the little bits that we get of her pre hogwarts.

[23:40] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And interesting to think about her parents. Like getting this random letter and sending her. Right?

[23:47] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[23:51] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: That's the wonderful thing about secure attachment and great parenting is know, we're all about you. So if this is who you are and this is your success and this is where you're going to thrive, sure.

[24:03] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: We don't know anything. Go for it.

[24:06] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And I think that is part of Hermione's own resilience as well is that that secure attachment, as difficult as those interactions with Draco are, allows her to stand up for Harry and Ron and build friendships and sort of extend that beyond the parental unit onto her friends, new people and say, because I have a good sense of attachment and security and I know people will be there for me, I can be there for other people, too. And then you can carry it forward. So I think Hermione is a really nice example of a secure attachment. And then I think you see that play out a little bit more. Not in the first book, but later on at the Yule ball, where she can put Ron in his place for not asking her out and sort of take ownership of her own. Know, next time you want to do this, pluck up the courage and ask, right?

[25:10] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Boundaries.

[25:11] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I think that's a really nice illustration of how important attachment is as a child is growing and then into adolescence that the same things play out in your other relationships.

[25:25] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And how amazing to have a girl character like Hermione, right? Like, I think all the things you just said, like her bravery, her intellect, her self confidence, her boundaries, I just think so lovely to have a girl character like this for girls and boys and adults to read about and identify with. And she can maintain that sense of herself in the face of draco and the slurs and the comments, even when people even know who she goes on to marry down the road. Spoiler alert. Even as he's kind of putting her down for being smart, she doesn't stop raising her, know? And I remember as a middle school girl who loved school, just loving that, just loving that. And I loved watching now my daughter, watch her, and I'm just like, soak this up, soak this.

[26:20] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah, such a lovely little bottle for girls. And then since we're on the topic, like, you think about Ron, who is like this lost soul in this big family of redheads. And so you kind of see his sort of anxious style come through that, particularly when he was asked to relax and he couldn't.

[26:44] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes, he's like, I don't know how.

[26:49] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Right? And all the hand me down. Not that he got, but also the same sweater that he gets every year, that there is love in that family, there is care, but also with so many kids, they're kind of lost until they get into trouble, that they get into parental they get parental attention and you hear about their concerns. And so even though there is not a lot of any mal intent anywhere within the Weasley family, but you can see where Ron's anxiety and anxious attachment style comes in and you see the same thing in the Eubolic. And the anxious attachment style is, you know, the child that doesn't know how to get through, they're like, all right, please pick me up. No, now put me down. No, pick me up again. I'm not sure. They're just taking time to self regulate and self soothe and sometimes they can get pretty irritable and upset too, and so they might lash out. And you see that in the U ball scene, too, where I know I'm jumping ahead, but rather than asking Hermione, he gets really sulky and irritable rather than owning up, but he wants it, but he doesn't know how to do it. So you kind of see that tension and that sort of clinginess but not sure what to do sort of thing. So I think the whole series really highlights these attachment styles really nicely.

[28:19] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Isn't that amazing? How did JK. Rowling do that? And I thought the fact that they're all eleven, it was just perfect, right? Like at that age and kind of with all the books following them through is just really beautifully done, I think.

[28:39] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: And you can kind of play out in the carriage scene when they're first on the Hogwarts Express together, where I think Hermione comes in looking for Neville's Frog frog. And you see how confident she is and she's you're and who are you and have you done this? And so self aware, self confident. And then you have Harry just sitting by himself, not sure he wants to talk to anybody. And poor Ron, who's trying to get his presence known again, just like a young child in a big family would feel lost, that I have to make my presence known, otherwise I won't get the attention I need. And poor Scabbers that he's trying to turn yellow and that's not working out. So you kind of see it play so nicely in a very simple scene.

[29:36] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Definitely something that I noticed, and I think it's just my interpretation of things, is that Ron seems to have the most obvious shame about his finances compared to the other siblings. I don't really notice or even Jenny's younger in this book, but being so visibly upset, I know that there's the interaction in the robes shop with Draco and then on the train, even with his little sandwich, right, he can't buy the treats. And then there's like whoa when Harry has those gold coins. And it really does seem to impact him even throughout the rest of the story. Just that intersectionality. He's a pure blood, but he is poor. And then how that really goes up against Draco and his Pure Blood and wealth family.

[30:34] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I think that's an interesting thing to think about the intersectionality of all their identities in this sort of fantasy world, right? There's so many parallels. Like even if you think about different intersectional identities in our culture today, and it's just interesting to think about it's an older book.

[30:55] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, again, it's so easy to talk about these more seemingly popular nuanced ideas. They've been around for a while, but everyone kind of talks about their intersectionality or different identities. And it's so clear in the book, right?

[31:13] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It does seem like the type of series where you'll always get more from it. I reread the series I think, last year, and I loved it, and I feel like I got more from it as an adult than I did as a kid. And it's one of those things where I feel like every time you read it, you'll get more and more from it.

[31:31] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: It just means something different. Yeah.

[31:35] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So one thing I was hoping we could talk about is the mirror of Irisev, which is desire spelled backwards. I totally choked up watching this part again, as an adult, I was curious to hear about your experience.

[31:52] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah, I had so many thoughts about that. I mean, it's such a powerful thing. And the fact that if you're truly content, then you can see yourself as you are, only the happiness, and if that is the measure of happiness. And it was like, wow, just the visual illustration of happiness, that you could see yourself and just see yourself as you are. Because I just felt like, yes, it is desire spelled backwards, but it is so prevalent throughout with starting with those 36 presents that you want more, and Voldemort wanting more, that defeated and needing to come back and needs to get more and more power and even kills a unicorn for it.

[32:46] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Oh, my gosh, that was devastating for my four year old daughter. I regretted that part horribly.

[32:51] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Like, yes, moving but jarring scene. And then the fact that your heart's deepest desires that you're desperate for and you'll see that, but anything that's too much is going to consume you. And those people who sort of run after the things that they really, really want, I think it was a very powerful way of giving that message of too much consume you and there'll be nothing left. Like it does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live. So I just thought it takes so much courage, though, to ask yourself what it is that you really want in life. I mean, a lot of us may want all these things, but what is it that you truly, truly want? I think that's a very powerful question to ask. And how many of us really can look at ourselves in the mirror and say, this is what I really, really want in life, and to be able to face that and own it.

[33:59] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: It's a good question to ask a client, even, because I think you can always get to the feeling right under it. So if someone's they're saying that their deepest desire is financial gain, it's like, okay, but what does that mean? Does that mean you want to feel secure? Does it mean that you want to be powerful in a sense of authority? Do you want people to look up to you? It's always like a feeling.

[34:26] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And why? Where does that come from?

[34:28] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, it's a good place to explore with yourself and maybe with a patient as well.

[34:33] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Can you imagine, like, starting off a session, they come to see you. For the first time. And you're like, here is my mirror of IRISET.

[34:39] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah.

[34:40] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Looking at what do you see and.

[34:42] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: What does that mean?

[34:45] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: It'll make our job so much easier.

[34:47] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I know, right quick, right real quick.

[34:50] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: We'll get to the deep rooted issues in 10 seconds.

[34:54] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Easy peasy. Managed care will love it. So we see what Harry wants, which is his parents. And again, I was so struck by him going back to that mirror repeatedly and I was just like, of course he is, right? Like his parents are moving. You see his mother, his father touch his shoulder. I was just like, oh, I so feel that for him. Then we see him drag ron so excited to share that experience of his parents with him. But Ron sees himself as head boy and winning the quidditch cup. And again, that totally makes sense based on everything we just talked about with Ron's family. We didn't see hermione. And I was curious what you guys thought. What would hermione see, if anything, or would she see herself?

[35:46] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think maybe if anyone would be seeing themselves, it would be her. Especially like in book one. I think she does seem so content and excited and authentic that I think it might be her. Maybe it's her being top of the class.

[36:04] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I think she is.

[36:05] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: She already kind of is.

[36:08] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I have a feeling that the one thing she grows to develop were friendships. That I wonder if she might see herself surrounded with friends.

[36:17] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, I think at her age again, I agree. Portia of the Three know. Harry rod hermione. I feel like she would be the one closest to seeing just her true self. But I wonder if at that age of eleven, as a girl, if there's something deeper she's not able to articulate yet that we might see like friendship.

[36:38] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, I think that's accurate. I think sometimes you get the books confused or what's, like maybe a fan fiction thing online or something. But I am pretty sure that she does say that she did struggle with friends and so to have these deep friendships build at Hogwarts, I think that might be it.

[37:00] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah. I'm just thinking know, she is very brilliant. So seeing herself as like the know, graduate or something of her class probably isn't far fetched. But if that intimidates other kids when she's correcting them over livio saw yes, that might rub kids the wrong way. That maybe that peer acceptance and those close friendships might be something that we see sort of develop over time as well.

[37:33] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And so as we start wrapping up our wonderful episode today, let's talk a little bit about their friendships. Because I just feel like, gosh, I thought the movie did such a good job explaining the book, which has so many concepts, so much magic in it. It's had to do so much in just two and a half hours of just like background, like this is where we find ourselves. This is Hogwarts. This is Quidditch. This is Voldemort. Like here it is. And capturing all these complex concepts in such like a beautifully visually appealing way. The music is wonderful but we certainly see the triad between Harry, Ron and Hermione starting and forming and we know that just grows and grows and gets more complex over time. And I was really curious Dr. Q about your thoughts about first of all that it's a triad. There's three of them, two boys and a girl and what do you think of all that?

[38:36] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I just love the idea and particularly since you have the girl be somebody like hermione and I thought it's really nice to see their parallel processes. Each one of them is trying to sort of discovering that they're each really good at something but not good at everything. Like Hermione realizes she's not good at quit it. How humbling for someone who's really good and smart to know quidditch is not for, you know, Harry discovering that's what he's really good at and very early on know Ron playing chess and how it was reinforced with all the points even Neville's like standing up to your. So I felt that that was such a lovely way of saying that some of the reasons why friendships are important is that no one is whole in themselves and so much stronger when we all complement each other. But how do you explain that to an eleven year old? But if they saw the movie they would understand that we are so much more when we're all together and how those friendships last over years even for many of us. And I also felt like the complexity that you talked about. I think another movie that highlights it really nicely is Inside Out.

[40:06] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes, we love that movie.

[40:08] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Our emotions are one color when they're younger and as you grow older they get more complex and those marbles are multicolored because emotions are more complex than just feeling sad, mad and glad. And similarly as we're thinking about I think this goes very nicely in a parallel of fairy tales and development that when children are younger they can only see good and bad. As long as you're giving me what I want you're the good parent. When you set limits you are not.

[40:43] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Oh I feel this every day older.

[40:46] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: You can hold the things together in the same person that there are things that are great about them and there are things that are some weaknesses. And when we're children we look at our parents as these idealized giants and as we grow older we see them for human beings that have wonderful strengths and flaws that we can still accept and love them still the same. So I think that is a big developmental challenge but I think the books highlight that really nicely with them being able to sit and tolerate that complexity.

[41:29] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That nothing is so and again with them starting this journey at age eleven. I feel like that's the perfect timing for all of this to start. And I wonder if even the darkness of Harry Potter in watching the first movie, I was like, all right. I think it'll be several years before I show my kids the second movie because each one gets a little darker, a little grittier. But I think that maybe contributes to why it sort of captured all of us. And it is darker than the Disney version. Like, Inside Out is a great example, but I think that just speaks to the reality.

[42:12] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, the books get more complex, the books get darker, the characters get more complex, the characters get know. I think it was just such an interesting time to read it as a child as they came out, because it really kind of aligned perfectly with my own development.

[42:28] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, exactly.

[42:29] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I remember my mom read me the first book, and then I remember the last one coming out, and I think my grandma said it to me. It was like raft in the Muggles, right? Like Muggles can receive on whatever date, and then I read it for myself. So I think it's so uniquely that way that led to so many people being a part of it for years and still feeling really connected to it now.

[42:53] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And now getting to share it with your own children, like I'm starting to do, is so special.

[42:59] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Yeah. And that's the power of fairy tales, is that even if it may be really dark, it creates this metaphorical, imaginary, special place where you can still explore this darkness in a very safe way.

[43:13] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yes.

[43:13] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: Go process it. Look what it's like to be angry. Oh, my gosh. Cruel people, mean people. And then you come back to the safety of reading this with your mom and everything's going to be okay.

[43:27] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

[43:27] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It's so beautiful. It is. It's very special. Very special. Well, Dr. Q, is there anything else you were hoping we could touch, know, talking about Harry Potter, the first it.

[43:42] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: I think it's just a wonderful part of my life. I wish I was in Hogwarts, and that was the life I lived. Sometimes I'm looking forward to having a real Harry Potter birthday someday. But I think the thing that resonates most with me is this quote from Neil Gaiman that says, fiction is a lie that tells us true things over and over. And I think that's the power of Harry Potter is that the reason it spoke to so many of us is that we all connected at some level with something that was very true for each one of us.

[44:18] Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I like that.

[44:20] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That is a really beautiful place to leave it. Well, Dr. Q, thank you so much for joining us. We would love to have you back for the next seven movies over the course of time. It was so nice to personally reconnect with you again, thank you all for listening to this very special episode of Analyze Scripts. If you'd like to hear our take on Inside Out, we do have an episode about that from several months ago. I don't know. Dr. Q, did you know they're making a sequel? I think it's supposed to come out in the next couple of years, so that's really exciting. I hope it's about Riley's adolescence. Yes, and we really hope it also shows her living through COVID. Like, we could really use that for all the kids. We could, right? But you can find us at Analyze Scripts podcast on Instagram and TikTok and catch us next Monday for our next episode. Thanks so much.

[45:24] Dr. Zheala Qayyum: See you next time. Thank you for having me.

[45:32] Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of Analyzed Scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings, or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.