Analyze Scripts

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are analyzing the Oscar-winning film "The Whale" starring Brendan Fraser. This one's a doozy! This emotional film stirred up a lot of different, conflicting emotions for Dr. Furey and Portia. While exploring our own sadness and rage, we also discuss the masterful portrayal of depression, binge-eating disorder, childhood abandonment, and end-of-life care. We hope you enjoy!

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Portia Pendleton: Hi.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Welcome back to another episode of Analyze Scripts. I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, a psychiatrist, and I'm joined, as always, by my friend and colleague, Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker. Thanks for joining us. Once again, or if it's your first time, welcome. Today we are going to be talking about the film by Darren Aranovsky. I think I'm saying that right. The Whale, which recently Brendan Fraser, who stars in this movie, won an Oscar for best actor. So we're pretty excited to talk about it.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton: Brendan Fraser is, like, all over the place. He just seems so precious. And that's a perfect word to describe.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And precious.

Portia Pendleton: I like that it means, like I don't know. I want him to be I want.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Good taking care of him. I know. I want him to have, like, a serenity garden with a little quiet waterfall and some butterflies. Yeah, that's what I want.

Portia Pendleton: And all the awards and accolades that he deserves. So I think a lot of people remember him from Georgia the Jungle, the big shirtless man. And then he was in the Mummy trilogy, and then he kind of stalled for a bird.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I thought maybe he just was like, all right, I'm done now.

Portia Pendleton: Yes. I think we've learned more recently I don't think that this really came out of the time, but he did report a sexual assault in 2003 by Philip Burke, who was the then Hollywood Foreign Press Association president. So I think this kind of piggybacked on what we've seen before with the MeToo movement and what's the guy's name?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Harvey Weinstein.

Portia Pendleton: Like a Harvey Weinstein kind of situation. And I think Brendan Fraser can be added and welcomed into the Me, too. He put himself out there as a young man, 30s, back in the day, and what happened is really normal then, right. It kind of got brushed in the rug. He was blackballed by the industry. His name was not brought up for things. And I think it's just such, like, a beautiful story that now he got this opportunity and he just, like, knocked out of the park. I mean, he got, I think, an eleven minute standing ovation when this film was shown at the Sundance Film Festival. People are just loving him and his performance.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think it's kind of shocking, right, to see someone who was like George of the Jungle or in these other shore roles that weren't so deep and emotional to really perform in that way.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I think there was also some sort of I don't know about controversy. I don't think that's the word I'm looking for. But I don't think he went to the Golden Globes specifically because I don't think he felt supported when all this happened and he continued to take a stand. I was really proud of him for that. Really proud of him for that.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton: I think he just is. I hope that he's being welcomed back with kind of open arms into a supportive and getting the credit that he.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Deserves, and I hope he has some good therapy along the way.

Portia Pendleton: So The Whale has kind of, like a little bit of an interesting story. I don't have the details exactly in front of me, so I'm kind of just going to recall it, but it was based on, like, a play, and it was forever. Like, the script has been floating around for, I think, the past 1510 to 15 years. And there's been, like, different directors, different producers, different actors kind of floated around with it at some point. I think that oh, he's the host of the Late Late Night Show.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Seth Meyers? No.

Portia Pendleton: Steven Colbert. England.

Dr. Katrina Furey: The redhead?

Portia Pendleton: Yes.

Dr. Katrina Furey: No. James Corgan?

Portia Pendleton: Yes. Okay.

Portia Pendleton: As a potential he was going to play not a good he didn't yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I'm really glad I didn't know he was an actor.

Portia Pendleton: I don't know.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That's what I saw, according to the Internet.

Portia Pendleton: So I just think it's an interesting path that both The Whale, in one sense has had and then Brendan Fraser and I feel like they both kind.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Of came together like it was meant to be. Wow.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That is nice.

Portia Pendleton: So why don't we do, like, a little brief, brief, brief rundown about the premise of the movie?

Portia Pendleton: Okay.

Portia Pendleton: So if you haven't seen it, but you want to kind of just, like, hear the podcast episode, we'll try to give you some context.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. But also I think we wanted to include a trigger warning with this episode because The Whale is a really emotional film and we will be talking about some pretty intense themes today, including disordered eating patterns, strained parent, child relationships, abandonment, trauma, and suicide. So we did just want to give that little warning because it is intense. And even if you haven't watched the film yet, again, do so, but just be aware it's intense.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I definitely was feeling a lot of emotions throughout the movie.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And it's really interesting that we both left the movie feeling very different, but very strong feelings. So we'll talk about that. So the premise I recall from this movie, again, I feel like I was so angry at the end, I've blocked some things out, which is interesting. But basically we see this very obese man and I don't know, we wanted to talk about even what terminology we wanted to use to talk about his character.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton: So, I mean, there is, like, kind of, I guess a split field with just, like, how to refer to someone who's in, like, a much larger body. I think some people would prefer just to be called fat. This is a fat man. Other people, I think, prefer to use more, like, just medical terminology. And it's like, with non judgment, but just kind of stating more facts most.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Likely meet medical criteria for morbid obesity.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton: So I think maybe we will use interchangeable language throughout the podcast, whether we are referring to him as fat and a large body or morbidly obese, we'd.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Be curious to hear your thoughts about what you think about these words and terminology as we talk about these tough issues. So, anyway, Brendan Fraser plays Charlie, who it looks like is a teacher for like, an online college writing course. And he also appears to be somewhat of a hermit. The whole film takes place in his apartment. My husband, he's so witty. He kept saying, like, wow, they really saved money on the budget there.

Portia Pendleton: I had that thought after. And again, such a quote unquote low budget film. There's not really per se, like these crazy special effects and all of these sets. It's like they built this set, this home, and we really don't see anything outside of it besides this one flashback. So totally like a beach. But yes, it's like around the apartment. It's in the apartment. It's right outside his apartment door. The parking lot of the apartment, right.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And we didn't know for a while was it an apartment or a house. We just start off right in the house and in the home. And then as the film moves on, we see the different rooms and like the one room he's kept locked and things like that. And then at some point, I don't remember exactly how far into the movie, but not right away, we see that he's actually on the second floor. And so, again, that sort of was like, well, okay, now I see why he really doesn't leave because he has a lot of mobility trouble. But so basically, it seems like this film is sort of capturing the last week of his life, right, that he is morbidly obese and dealing with all of the medical consequences that unfortunately come with that. As a physician, I thought they did a really good job accurately depicting that. They depicted hypertensive emergency with his blood pressure being I wrote it down. Actually, I was going to ask you. I wrote it down in my notes. My first note was while he's masturbating. That was a surprise, just real quick. And then the next one's. Blood pressure was 238 over 134. And I have three exclamation points because that is so scary high. Normal blood pressure is around 120 over 80. So that is really high. In us physicians, we really worry about the bottom number, the diastolic number. I mean, we worry about both, but especially the diastolic number. We worry about it when it's between 91 hundred. So 134 is like, really scary high. Like, he could have a stroke.

Portia Pendleton: He could have heart attack.

Dr. Katrina Furey: He could all the things. And then you see him, like, I.

Portia Pendleton: Think.

Dr. Katrina Furey: As he ********** or something I thought was having a heart attack. He's wheezing, he's sweating, he's grabbing his chest like he's having chest pain. He's like moving his left arm, indicating it's radiating down there. And I was like, oh, my God, he's having a heart attack. He's not going to die because then the movie will be over. But this is, like, really accurate. And then with his wheezing and his friend who comes over to listen to him, immediately, I thought he's probably in heart failure and his legs are swollen. All of it was really accurate.

Portia Pendleton: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey: So, again, from a medical perspective, I thought they did a really good job portraying that. And the struggles of living in such a large body, like with the walker, with the wheelchair, with all the assistive devices, like the four year lift to get in and out of the bed, things to grab things from up high or down low. He alludes at some point to having bed sores and things like that, which is probably true if you're not able to work around too much. So I did think that was spot on.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton: And I think kind of right away, we are introduced to a couple. Again, not a big cast.

Dr. Katrina Furey: There's like five characters.

Portia Pendleton: So there's Brendan Fraser, who's Charlie, and then there is his friend, it seems like a longtime friend who is a nurse, I believe, or some kind of medically trained she looks like a nurse.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Liz, I think was her name.

Portia Pendleton: She was nominated, I believe, played by Hong Chow. And then Thomas, who is this, like, traveling missionary, seems like. But then there's a little bit of a twist at the end. His daughter, who's played by Sadie Singh, Ellie. And then we briefly see Charlie's ex wife and Sadie Singh's. Or Lily's, Ellie's mom, Mary, who was.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Played by Samantha Morton. And then we also have Dan, I believe was the name of his partner.

Portia Pendleton: Right.

Portia Pendleton: And then a little brief character of the delivery person.

Dr. Katrina Furey: The delivery person, that's right.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: So I got kind of sidetracked summarizing the plot. Did you have anything you wanted to.

Portia Pendleton: Add before we dive into we kind of get the feeling that he is a little bit of a hermit. His apartment is really dark, like, windows, shades are drawn, a lot of clutter.

Portia Pendleton: Yep, yep.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe kind of hoarding, but not like kind of hoarding.

Portia Pendleton: And then we see him teaching. He doesn't have his camera off. So I'm kind of getting the feeling that he has some shame about his appearance because it's kind of demonstrated to us the camera does work. It's just kind of like a choice that he's not putting it on.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I at first thought, Is this during COVID I did, too.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah. So my first thoughts were like, Whoa, there's masturbating. Is this during COVID And then I was like, wow, like, really interesting. Those were, like, my kind of back and forth.

Dr. Katrina Furey: So, anyway, intense feelings right away.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton: We start to see his health seriously decline. It seems like he appears at first to not want to get to medical help because of worries for cost. We learn later, like some other information around that. But that's what he's telling Liz to not go to the hospital. She's encouraging him.

Portia Pendleton: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey: So Liz, who at first we think of as his friend, she's always showing up in scrubs. She has a stethoscope. She seems to be a nurse. She works night shifts, things like that. She's sort of like being his nurse and medical caretaker. Which I kept thinking, like, what a hard position for her, to be sure. But I know, like, toward the end, they were like, oh, wait, you do have this money. You could go to the hospital.

Portia Pendleton: Let's be real.

Dr. Katrina Furey: The level of care he would need is, like, ICU level of care that is crazy expensive. Like, his bill would be astronomical. Like, the 140 grand or something that he has would not cover it.

Portia Pendleton: Maybe like two days is you can afford health insurance. Okay, there we go.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton: I feel like that's also something that I wanted to spend a little bit.

Portia Pendleton: Of time talking about.

Portia Pendleton: It's just, like, health insurance and kind of, from our perspectives, his potential barriers, or just like, potential systemic barriers. But my thought was really, like, he might not qualify for Medicaid. Maybe he does make too much. But then I would assume that there is some kind of supplemental insurance or that he would be paying into something. And again, even if he was paying into a high deductible and his deductible was, like, $15,000, that's way less than hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars of his bill.

Dr. Katrina Furey: So it's so true.

Portia Pendleton: That's where I was a little angry. Kind of like it felt like a little bit of misinformation. While I'm very aware that health insurance can be wildly costly and there's a lot of people who need better care, and that's a barrier. So I think I'm trying to balance both sides of the coin.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But I think that is sort of the mixed feelings Charlie stirs up in you, at least for me, is like, you get so frustrated with him that he's not getting help or taking the help that's being offered. And I think that's actually a really good example of that. You do have the funds to get health insurance. Like he said, his expenses are very minimal at that point at somewhere along the way, he could have gotten some help and he hasn't. And so that stirs up some really kind of icky feelings, at least in me. I was feeling really angry with him for a lot of the movie.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton: And I think that anger is magnified because, again, a part of the storyline is that he is kind of choosing to step back into his daughter's life, which appears that he abandoned her when she was eight, I believe, and kind of left that family to have a partner.

Dr. Katrina Furey: It appears that he is gay and.

Portia Pendleton: Maybe was in that relationship, as his ex wife discusses, because you just wanted a child. She says that at one point in.

Dr. Katrina Furey: The movie, but again, or maybe hadn't really even come out to himself yet. We see. This totally happened, right? So again, it's like, gosh, this movie really stirs up a lot of big feelings because it's like you understand the wife's perspective because they were married, they had this daughter, and all of a sudden he leaves to be with a man. And I couldn't tell if the wife didn't want him in the daughter's life. And that's why he stayed away, because he kept trying to say, like, I sent you letters, I send you money. I would ask about you. Your mom didn't want me around. I couldn't tell how true that was.

Portia Pendleton: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Or if he's sort of saying that. I don't know. What were your thoughts about that?

Portia Pendleton: I wonder if initially she was so angry, rightfully so, and maybe just based on the time where they live, and embarrassed and anger and then embarrassment, kind of, because I guess he tried to get custody, shared custody, whatever, and she fought him for that.

Dr. Katrina Furey: She had full custody.

Portia Pendleton: So I don't know if he then interpreted some of those things as I'm.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Out, or if she did keep the daughter away. And I couldn't tell. I can't remember where they all lived. I couldn't tell how was being gay viewed in their town and their culture and their religion. It sounded like Charlie was part of this what was it called? New Life Religion, or at least his partner was. So was that like, the religion everyone is sort of a part of in their area? And are they against homosexuality? That was unclear. But for whatever reason, he wasn't in his daughter's life, effectively. And then he makes contact again at the end of his life, and and.

Portia Pendleton: It seems like it is behind, like, the mom's back and and I do remember actually, there was some, like, alluding to that. It was I don't want to say, like, illegal is not the right word.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But, like, not part of the custody.

Portia Pendleton: Agreement or should not be reaching out. She could call the police on him for doing that.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That was the sense I got, too. So that was where I was like something went down. It seemed like it was more severe than just like, he left. It seemed like there was a really firm line drawn. Unclear exactly why, but it was drawn.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah. And then so we learned a little bit that he had left this family to be with a student. And so at first, right, immediately I.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Was like, oh, is that why is.

Portia Pendleton: He now a sexual predator?

Portia Pendleton: Right.

Portia Pendleton: I wondered how long it seems like he was teaching adult classes. So it was more of like an ethical issue that he was maybe let go for than, like a legal issue. You're in a position of power, but you're both adults.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, but I had that thought too. I was like, Is that why the line was so firm with the custody or something like that. But I think he said that Dan was in grad school and it was like night classes, if I remember correctly.

Portia Pendleton: And he wasn't currently in his classes at the time when they got together. I don't know. I mean, so he's telling all this to his daughter.

Dr. Katrina Furey: So, by the way, who he hasn't spoken to since she was eight, and now she's a senior and, like, just, hey, let me lay all this on you.

Portia Pendleton: Then kind of the second part of the film appears to just be around his interactions with his daughter, Ellie, and then occasionally with Thomas, who is like this traveling again, we believe, to be missionary, and Liz his nurse. That's it. And then it gets very emotionally intense.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton: So why don't you want to start talking about his daughter a little bit?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Fine.

Portia Pendleton: I have a lot of angry feelings.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Toward Charlie for the way he interacts with his daughter. So Ellie, I thought, was, like, really angry, really feisty. It seemed like she was at risk of failing out of school, and he wanted to help her. So I can't remember now exactly how he got her to come over that first time. Did he send her a message or something saying he had money for her, or do you remember?

Portia Pendleton: I don't think he initially said that he had money for her because he then says, I'll pay you. And then that's where she kind of chooses appearingly, so on the surface to stay or to keep coming back. But it sounds like that was new information to her.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And it sounds like he is an English teacher. And throughout the film, there is a lot of significance to this paragraph about the whale from Moby ****. Right. And thomas the traveling.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I keep wanting to say traveling salesman, but that's not what he was traveling. Like, missionary comes in while he's masturbating and then having seems like a mini heart attack or something. And he asks him to read this paragraph to sort of ground him and bring him back and everything. And it's not till the very end of the movie that we learn that Ellie wrote that when she was much younger, and he's always kept it and read it. And I think it really resonates with him, again, being what some people would call a whale, just based on his large size. I think in a lot of ways, it resonated with him. And he sort of starts to say that he will help Ellie rewrite her essays so that she doesn't fail her English class. And then Ellie wants him to write them for her. And he kind of agrees, I think, in an effort to keep seeing her. And there's this tension or thought, I think, in his mind throughout the whole film about, is Ellie a good person or a bad person? And even her mom toward the end is like, she's terrible. I've had a really hard time raising her. You left me with her all on my own and now you're coming in and going behind my back and you told her about the money, she's going to spend it all and blah, blah, blah, blah. But she's very provocative. She really gets under everyone's skin, especially Thomas. And I'm curious what your thoughts were about the final thing they talk about with her. Like sort of telling Thomas's family if that was like a good thing or a bad thing or we don't really know.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I think she did a really good job in the role. And I know her from Taylor Swift's ten minute version. She's in it all too well. Like the movie with Bill O'Brien and also Stranger Things. But I really like Z. No, I recognized her name, so I thought that some of the things that she was saying to Charlie, her dad, you could feel how hurtful they were. It sounds like she really knows where to hit you.

Portia Pendleton: Yes.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Like lying and disgusting and even if you weren't fat.

Portia Pendleton: And that made me feel really sad. But kind of throughout that, I feel like Ellie was just so sad.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.

Portia Pendleton: And abandoned. I think on paper she almost feels a little bit, like, odd and then maybe like moving into some conduct disorder with dead animal stuff. Yeah, I forgot. So on her Instagram page, she has, like, pictures of a dead dog and then she has this knife at one point and it almost feels like she's going to kill the bird that's outside his window. And so again, I think just like, on paper, it feels like a little bit.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Where is this going to go? Does she have antisocial personality disorder? Is she growing into that? Or is this like trauma?

Portia Pendleton: Right.

Portia Pendleton: So I feel like it's trauma.

Dr. Katrina Furey: It could also be both.

Portia Pendleton: Right. I think at this point, I have a really big heart for teens.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I've worked with many.

Portia Pendleton: And my heart breaks for her because she keeps coming back. She's so mean and trying to push him away, but then she keeps coming back.

Dr. Katrina Furey: She doesn't leave.

Portia Pendleton: At one point, I think she's going to leave, but then she goes back and sits in the chair and does what he says.

Dr. Katrina Furey: She writes him.

Portia Pendleton: She's like, I'm going to make you a sandwich. No, it's not going to be big. But then she's like, doing these things for him. So, again, it's like she wants so badly, deep down to be like, parented.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And loved and supported and all children want. Right. 100%. I thought it was like, such a chilling since you get goosebumps everywhere. Such a good portrayal of just a really difficult parent child relationship. And I think with her coming in and confronting the person, she feels like abandoned her. Who did you see why she feels that way? Right. Whatever the reasons are, he wasn't there, right? Period. And now coming back and of course, I feel like she's just all her anger and yelling and acting out is just, like, externalizing all of her pain rather than internalizing it, which it seems like Charlie internalizes his pain by binge eating. And we'll get into that in a minute. I think what made me so angry about this movie, and maybe it's supposed to, is that he comes into her life when he knows he's dying.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton: Right.

Portia Pendleton: For him to see her, that she is okay, it's like, you don't want to make her okay. You are just, like, checking back into her life to make sure you did one thing right. And it's like, for you. So selfish.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I was going to read my final notes here on my notes app. At the very end I wrote ended movie feeling really, really angry. Didn't cry at all. Is he the most selfish person ever?

Portia Pendleton: Help.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Seeking help, rejecting reconnecting with his daughter to die in front of her. I was so angry. I remember, like, furiously typing this in my notes app because I was just like, God, that is you abandoned her all over again. And she sees him die. Like, he has the final heart attack in front of her while she's reading the Whale to him.

Portia Pendleton: And let's just talk about so mad. I don't know if there's a name for it. We could probably call it something. But he is openly rejecting help at the cost of then traumatizing people around him, literally. To watch someone die, even if it's, you know, like a an uncomplicated death. You know, you're you're in the hospital. You're saying goodbyes to your grandparent who's 100 years old.

Dr. Katrina Furey: They're on hospital.

Portia Pendleton: It's still so traumatic and really hard to watch. So watching your father who 100 years old and who's refusing, don't call them. Don't call them. Even in that moment, don't call them. Just read me this letter instead. It's like, I just feel so abusive.

Dr. Katrina Furey: It does, right? That's why I was so mad that I was like, I don't like Charlie.

Portia Pendleton: Even within the traumatic end and his apparent rejection of her and abandonment of.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Her, it's like he should have asked her to leave.

Portia Pendleton: Don't let her watch you literally die. Literally die and force her to read this.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Right?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. I was so angry. I don't know. This movie stirred up so much anger in me. I know. Portia after you watched it, you texted me like, oh, my God, I'm crying. I'm so glad I watched this during the day so I can decompress and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I did not shed one tear. I am so full of rage over here.

Portia Pendleton: I was like, sad for everyone. Obviously, I'm angry at what he did, but it felt a little bit like an assisted suicide. He knew he was going to die any day, and I think he was kind of just waiting for his heart to give out.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. But also, I think if we replaced obesity and binge eating with drugs yes.

Portia Pendleton: That'S exactly the example I was thinking.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I kept feeling for Liz. And then I'm like, and you're enabling him. You're bringing these huge subs by listening to him when he says, don't call for help and putting yourself in that role. You're part of the problem. But I understand why you keep coming. It's so complicated. So I was really just fascinated by whoever's choice it was to use obesity or binge eating as the diagnosis, if you will. And I was curious, Porsche, about your thoughts as someone who does a lot of work with patients with disordered eating, about the depiction of his eating habits and things like that.

Portia Pendleton: I guess I would start off with, like, everyone, to a degree, has a different presentation with eating disorders, period. Like what it's used for, whether it's coping or almost like a little bit of self harm. This felt a little bit like self harm versus avoidance. Yeah. And then at times, I think in the bridge it was coping. So I thought we saw kind of two parts with use of kind of food being what we're supposed to be kind of watching and thinking about. So one was him eating like a large you see, like a pair of fried chicken, right. And Liz eating a lot of it. And that feels like, to me, almost a little bit more like self harm. Like, you're kind of intentional at this point. You're kind of dying. It's almost like I was getting the feeling like he was hoping that by doing this, he might speed it up or speed it up, die. And then in the other part of the binge so it seems like it was triggered by which this, to me, feels very common.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I thought this was like an amazing depiction.

Portia Pendleton: So throughout the movie, we see this almost like, relationship build between him and the delivery driver. So the delivery driver seems like, at times concerned.

Portia Pendleton: Right.

Portia Pendleton: There's this person in this house. I never see them. I would imagine the person is maybe thinking the person inside is depressed, maybe a hoarder, maybe elderly, like unable to get up, something like that, when you.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Were like, but is this COVID?

Portia Pendleton: I was like, but if this is.

Dr. Katrina Furey: COVID, then we wouldn't think it was weird not to open your door for the delivery man. Right. Interesting.

Portia Pendleton: And it was just little fact this was pre COVID. And it seems like it was around the time of the 2016 election. We see some of the news clippings between Hillary and Donald Trump.

Dr. Katrina Furey: You're right.

Portia Pendleton: I saw an article about like, they chose that intentionally. It was supposed to be like, in 2009, they wanted the movie placed in, but then they moved it up that it impacted it too much. That wasn't like something I was paying attention to. But anyway. So over time, the delivery driver is kind of, like, talking to him more. They get his name. And so it seems like at one point, Charlie feels comfortable enough to go to the door, open it and see him.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't think it was that he felt comfortable enough. I thought he would be like, oh, the money's out there. Take it. He leaves it, and then he waits a certain number of minutes and then goes to get it. I thought the delivery driver stayed back.

Portia Pendleton: Oh, you do?

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Who was that's?

Portia Pendleton: Interesting.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't know if there's a right or wrong. It's just how we interpret the film. Right.

Portia Pendleton: So he goes to the door and the delivery driver sees him and appears to be really disgusted and does not engage. Charlie sees that. He sees him and appears to be disgusted and not engaged. And he kind of, like, runs away. And so Charlie goes back inside and starts to binge.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton: And this, I feel like, is a pretty typical binge episode. Like, there's a trigger of something that's emotional associated typically with negative emotion, shame or guilt. And then you proceed to start coping, quote, unquote, by eating a really large amount of food, right? And, yes, there are all different kinds of binges, sometimes people, large or small.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But this really is like a clinically defined binge episode. And I think, for me, I found myself feeling really uncomfortable and sick, almost, like physically sick, watching him eat. And I'm like, I'm sure they did this on purpose, but just like, the way he was eating so fast he could barely breathe, he starts to get sweaty and red, and he's, like, drooling. And there's that really intense scene where he's choking the meatball and just all of it, I felt like. And I'm just getting chills. Again, like, talking about it, I think just speaks to the intense emotions driving that behavior that I just thought, again, was really accurately depicted and really stirs up those feelings in the viewer.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton: So he is eating really rapidly. He's eating multiple kind of pizza, an odd mix of food, right? So going into the fridge, putting on different condiments, like the things that don't.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Belong together, like jelly mayonnaise. And that is binge eating, right? You're not eating, like, third helping a cake, right? You're eating, like, a whole loaf of bread or just sort of kind of odd things.

Portia Pendleton: So it's rapid, and we see it kind of end with he unintentionally throws up. And again, that is a difference between a self induced purge where trying to kind of get rid of it. That would be more along the lines of bulimia. But you can end a binge with something like throwing up. And that's not considered bulimia because it's not intentional. And it's kind of all over him. Again, it does bring up feelings of disgust. And I think that's kind of intentional. Intentional for the movie. They really want you to see that he is just, like, suffering. The thing that I took away, and I think he'll.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Empathy as you talk.

Portia Pendleton: Is that I just felt like his death almost to me, felt like a suicide. And that is where I think a lot of my empathy came from. I think what he did to Ellie is horrible, and I think that's why I really cried. I think I cried the last ten minutes. I could feel it, like, building.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I was, like, dissociating from my body from rage. Like, I was just, like, watching it. I was so angry that I was like, I can't get too close to this. Honestly, it was wild.

Portia Pendleton: Like, the pain you could feel, I had to get. So I think that's why it was very impactful.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think, too, the whole story with Dan, his partner, is so tragic. So it sounds like at some point I knew this was coming. And this is where sometimes I feel like a genius when I'm like, I can anticipate the storyline where I was like, oh, my God, Dan is Liz's brother.

Portia Pendleton: I didn't get that at all.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And then he was but so anyway, because I was like, how does he know Liz? He hasn't gone to a healthcare setting. It's not like she was his nurse and has this inappropriate bond to him or continued trying to help him out of the hospital or something like that. It's not like she was a student of his. How does he know her? It doesn't seem like she's his neighbor. But maybe. But so it turns out that Liz was Dan's sister and she was adopted into the family. And we sort of start to learn about this when the Thomas, the traveling missionary person, says, he's from this church. And she was like, I hate that church. And we learned that the beliefs of that church, it sounds like when Dan and Charlie fell in love, dan was so wracked with guilt, was my understanding, because that wasn't okay in the eyes of the church, that he ended up committing suicide. And so then you're like, that's why they're so bonded, because that was Liz's brother and that was his partner. And you do see some photos of him around his apartment. And Charlie wasn't thin, thin as you would think. Like, he was always maybe living in a larger body, but not morbidly obese. And so to me, I then also started looking at his relationship with food as his grief, like a depiction of grief and his guilt and shame and almost like, taking on literally the weight of Dan's death and in that way kind of like paralleling Dan's suicide, like you were saying, right? It was just so intense. So intense.

Portia Pendleton: I know. And I think I don't want to say it's just classic, but it's like, such a common presentation with binge eating disorder. There's so deeply rooted emotions, typically, of guilt and shame grief, rejection, out of control.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. I don't know. That's just kind of my guiding it can spiral.

Portia Pendleton: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, he didn't put on that weight overnight. It took years and years and years and years. And you imagine as that's happening, his world was probably getting smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller. Like, he was staying more and more in the house. And that's just sort of like you feel depressed watching the movie. It's dark. His apartment is cluttered. He, like, showers to see his daughter. But otherwise you imagine he's not really keeping up with his hygiene and all the things. And because it's hard to physically challenging.

Portia Pendleton: It's a production to get up and even use the bathroom.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. And it was so sad to me when Ellie was like, get up and walk over here.

Portia Pendleton: I got teary watching that.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: That made me and then he felt I mean, it just made me so uncomfortable. Like, that was another feeling I had throughout most of the movie, was just like, discomfort in so many different ways.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah. And he repeatedly throughout the movie says, I'm sorry.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right?

Portia Pendleton: Like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, like, over and over again and gets, like, so mad about him because, like, you're not sorry.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, that's the thing, right?

Portia Pendleton: You can be both. But it's like he needs some DBT, right? Because you're saying you're sorry, but you're not doing anything to make it better for others, even not even just for yourself.

Dr. Katrina Furey: But I didn't get the sense again, I was so angry with him by the end, but I also look at him as being so traumatized. And I didn't get the sense it was malicious.

Portia Pendleton: No.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. I just got the sense he was so hopeless and depressed. But then I would be so frustrated with him to not take people up on the offer to help or get the insurance or have sought help earlier on or anything. But I'm just like, maybe he just felt like he didn't deserve that.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I think that's absolutely part of it. And I think I just frame the entire thing as a suicide. And I think all of these feelings that we're talking about right now, you feel when someone takes their life suicide.

Portia Pendleton: Right?

Portia Pendleton: You're like, how could you do that? How could you leave your family, your kids? And there's really natural reactions that come up, like, you're selfish.

Dr. Katrina Furey: How could you choose that?

Portia Pendleton: Why wouldn't you reach out? Why wouldn't you go to the hospital? Why would you embark on a really planned and follow through event that leaves everyone just wrecked?

Portia Pendleton: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't think Ellie is going to be better.

Portia Pendleton: Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't think this is going to help her. And I think I was also so angry because another sort of storyline throughout the movie was between Ellie and Thomas. We get the sense at first that Thomas is this, like, goody two shoes, new life missionary who doesn't swear, doesn't drink, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that Ellie's, like, being provocative and trying to poke him and trying to get him to smoke pot, or she's going to call the police and say he raped her. She has all of these really provocative things and keeps taking his picture, which I thought was so weird.

Portia Pendleton: And she takes her dad's picture and posts it and has a really in common.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Just a lot of boundary violations on her part. At first I was like, she's giving me a lot of cluster b vibes, like you were saying. And then it turns out that this guy was part of the church, but then stole their money, so he ran away. And now he's like, ran out of the money so he can't get back. And he's kind of lost. He's full of guilt and shame and worried that his parents will reject him because of what he did. And so somehow she sends the photos or something to his parents and they welcome him back. They surprise him and actually say, we don't care about the money, we just want you back. And he shows up near the end of Charlie's life to tell him about this and that Ellie was responsible for it. And Charlie internalizes it or interprets it as like, see, Ellie is good. But I was like, I don't think that that was good. Right. I don't think she was doing that in hopes that would be the outcome. I think she was, like, trying to hurt it. Right?

Portia Pendleton: Yeah, totally. No, that's what I got from that. And I thought that Ellie is just such a good example of how for some people, events that happen in childhood can lead to, you know, and a later in life presentation.

Portia Pendleton: Right.

Portia Pendleton: Like, and I I think at this point and I'm I'm very hopeful with.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Kids and teens that like a chef. If you listen to our episode about.

Portia Pendleton: Choke Open, that's my what is it called? So I think in a perfect world, if she could have worked, if her father had stayed alive and healed his mental health and health, and she was able to get really good therapy and.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Family therapy, like go to residential.

Portia Pendleton: Exactly.

Portia Pendleton: I think that there is a path for her, but I feel like her watching him die is not going to having no closure. And now it sounds like no guidance from mom. It seems like mom is now checked out because she said to Charlie, I raised her and you gave her the money. That's the best that we could do.

Dr. Katrina Furey: It seems like mom really also gave up on her. She was like, duly abandoned.

Portia Pendleton: I just don't see a great outlook for her.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't either. And I don't think that was an act of good for Thomas. I think she's always trying to hurt people.

Portia Pendleton: Right. And I think what's scary and concerning is it gets worse when you're an adult. Right. There's more consequences. You often as an adult are not referred to justice system like a residential instead of jail. You're 18 and if you do something I mean, she's threatening. She's literally threatening Thomas. Like you can't tell someone that you have to smoke pot or I'm going to tell people that you raped me. Provocative is a great word. Like aggressive.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Provocative. It is threatening. Right, exactly. So I think you're right on the nose about her totally being this odd presentation. Odd. By that we mean oppositional defiant disorder, which is something that's diagnosed, I think, in teenagers. Right?

Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton: It's kind of like the prerequisite to then conduct disorder, which is like a little bit worse. It's like children specifically and teens who are very hurtful of others intentionally and typically there's a little extra layer there like you're setting fires or you have killed like a small animal. So I mean, it's very concerning.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Know the difference. This is the important thing we talked about again back in you if you haven't listened yet, please go back and listen. But this is the flavor of the type of personality that unfortunately will become antisocial personality disorder with a lot of criminality. Like, you know the difference between right and wrong and you want to do right. You want to hurt other people. And a lot of times kids who meet this criteria do have a trauma history and you're like, you were so hurt, now you want to hurt others. It was interesting that it was a daughter. I feel like oftentimes we see this in boys, right? Like boys are more often diagnosed with that girls are more often diagnosed with like borderline personality disorder. So it's interesting to see a depiction in a girl.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah, that's a good point.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh God, I need a shower.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I mean, the movie is just like I think it just made me sad because it just made me feel really like everyone was suffering so deeply and no one even Liz.

Portia Pendleton: Right.

Portia Pendleton: So she finds out at the end because Mary raised by his ex wife.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I think, so something like that.

Portia Pendleton: Because she kind of does bring up the fact that he has, I think, like around $120,000, which again he's planning to leave to Ellie and Liz is.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Just like, why you were able to get insurance this whole time.

Portia Pendleton: And she talks about her car.

Portia Pendleton: Right.

Portia Pendleton: At some point she was walking in the snow and rain to him to bring him things. And you could see so hurt that he a was not helping himself, but also like her.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think that the Charlie Liz relationship is a really good depiction of a codependent relationship right. Because they're each enabling each other and getting their own kind of psychological need met.

Portia Pendleton: I don't know.

Dr. Katrina Furey: What do you think?

Portia Pendleton: And have a shared I think yeah, they have all shared shared trauma that they're both like, using each other to cope with. And again, it's not I feel like that sounds bad, but it's just like we also just do that. We find ways to cope, and they're using and coping with each other in an unhealthy way. What did you think about the moment when Charlie was sitting he was sitting down and Mary kind of came over and was putting her head on his chest, and they were just kind of like, having that moment?

Dr. Katrina Furey: I honestly don't remember it because I think I was so angry by the end, I blocked out a lot of I guess I thought it was like.

Portia Pendleton: She was kind of saying goodbye, probably.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I could see. I mean, I think they all knew who I don't know if Ellie understood he was dying.

Portia Pendleton: Oh, we didn't talk about her giving him the ambien. Again.

Dr. Katrina Furey: These are the things that cross over from being a rebellious teen and not listening to mom and Dad's rules and breaking curfew to egregious behavior. Right.

Portia Pendleton: Like, literally drugging someone.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, you could have killed him. Yeah. And then it also gave a sense that mom is maybe taking a lot of pills or something at home and I think drinks a lot. She said so. Also not really checked in. Oh, God. It was just so sad. I think I just really get sad when kids are abandoned by their parents. I think that's hard for me to watch. All right, well, any other final thoughts about this movie?

Portia Pendleton: So when we were talking about Charlie's size and it definitely does take time to get into this position, and I wanted to point out in always, right? Mentally, physically, it's like, this isn't something that a large size of chicken wings does.

Portia Pendleton: Right.

Portia Pendleton: It's repetitive behaviors over and over and over again, kind of in Always with also a lot of health care avoidance.

Portia Pendleton: Yes.

Portia Pendleton: And I think there's a double edged sword to that. So I think a lot of people in larger bodies feel a lot of shame and can experience, like, fat phobia medical professionals. So there's a lot of avoidance, which is really too bad, because if you were with a provider who was really offering support and guidance in a non judgmental and shameful way, but maybe even just like the same information, you would feel more comfortable going if you get to your healthcare setting. And it was a challenge to write, walk into the building, get up, take up the elevator, walk into the door, and then you find that there's no chair that you can sit in because it's not big enough for you. It's like all of these little, small kind of micro aggression, oppression really kind of sets the effect and makes people not go. So I think I just wanted to talk about having fatty food does not necessarily lead to this. It's a really significant mental health part and kind of a multifaceted place that a person is in to get here.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And I think, again, I kept wondering about why did they pick morbid obesity over drug use, cutting, drinking, these other things we think about as self harming types of behaviors that you think you could develop in response to a tragic loss like this. We see that depicted a lot more in the media than something like this. So I think maybe that is why it all struck a nerve for everyone. And I thought overall, they did a remarkable job portraying binge eating the medical consequences that would come from living in a morbidly obese body and all the big feelings that he was probably feeling is what gets stirred up in us for watching, which was really fascinating, something we talk about a lot. And I think it's important, and I hope we keep reiterating with our show, is bodies come in all different shapes and sizes, and unfortunately, the medical field can be inherently fat shaming if you adhere too much to the BMI standards, which, as it turns out, aren't really predictive of overall health and longevity. I think there is some evidence that people with on the lower end of, like, the overweight BMI are sometimes healthier. They might not have high cholesterol or high blood pressure and things like that. A lot of people with a lot of muscle mass weigh more. So BMI is really not that accurate, but it's something a lot of people use.

Portia Pendleton: I think it's some of the advice that I give is really just kind of following what, to a degree, like.

Dr. Katrina Furey: What your lab work says.

Portia Pendleton: And if you are eating, in general, a balanced diet, and you're moving your body in a way that feels good to you, and you're living kind of a lifestyle that feels good, and your lab work is good and you're not having health issues, it's like you're probably okay. Right. And I think that's so true. People who appear and are in many.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Other ways very physically healthy can have.

Portia Pendleton: Really high cholesterol because it's genetic and there's parts to all of this.

Portia Pendleton: Exactly.

Portia Pendleton: I find that very interesting.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, that's the other thing is, even if you do all those things, if you have a family history, you still might develop it. You could be thin and still get diabetes because you're genetically predisposed. It's not only like a quote unquote, fat person disease.

Portia Pendleton: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey: So I don't know. I think we feel really strongly about that.

Portia Pendleton: But this movie was intense.

Dr. Katrina Furey: How would you rate it?

Portia Pendleton: One to five? Like five stars? Four stars? Four, I think.

Dr. Katrina Furey: For sure. Five stars. I mean, I don't know that I want to watch it again because it was intense.

Portia Pendleton: I don't know if I could. Not for any near future.

Dr. Katrina Furey: I feel like I've been anticipating recording this all week. I feel legit, like a weight is off my back. Which, again, is just really interesting.

Portia Pendleton: Yes.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Remarkable. I'm glad he won the oscar really well deserved, and I hope he keeps acting.

Portia Pendleton: I hope to see more.

Dr. Katrina Furey: And if he wants to come on the podcast, you're invited. Yeah, we'd love that.

Portia Pendleton: Well, thanks so much for listening to this episode. We hope you enjoyed it. If you would like, we would love for you to follow us on Instagram at Analyze Scripts. And if you could rate, review and subscribe and share with five people. Yeah, our channels on Spotify it seems like it's pretty active, as well as Apple Music, the most out of kind.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Of all the other places.

Portia Pendleton: But we are everywhere.

Portia Pendleton: Yes, we are everywhere.

Dr. Katrina Furey: If you wanted to go subscribe literally everywhere, feel free. All right, we'll see you next time.

Portia Pendleton: Bye.

Dr. Katrina Furey: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts.

Dr. Katrina Furey: All rights reserved.

Dr. Katrina Furey: Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time.