cover art for MDMA Couples Therapy (and Other Intimacy Ideas)

Spirit Levels

MDMA Couples Therapy (and Other Intimacy Ideas)

Season 1

Australia looks set to be the first country to run an MDMA-assisted couples therapy trial. What is it about ecstasy that researchers and couples therapists found promising back in the 70s and 80s, before it was made illegal?


Frank and Jenny talk to ‘late-bloomer Boomer’ Charley Wininger about his regular use of ecstasy in his marriage (he’s now 74 and they’ve “rolled” around 80 times, which he likens to 80 honeymoons), and how as a couples psychotherapist he views ecstasy as “emotional superglue”.

Jenny and Frank recall their own Pammy Anderson/Tommy Lee-style first date that wound up with big promises being made and eyebrows being intensely groomed, and they get some advice on how to achieve such intimacy without the use of drugs, through the 36 Questions That Lead to Love, developed by groovy husband and wife researchers Arthur and Elaine Aron.


This episode was mixed by Ally Kallis. A Sonder X Production. Episode released 23/10/23.




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Frank’s film Sengatan on Prime Video.

Jenny’s latest book, Everything Harder Than Everyone Else: Why Some of Us Push Our Bodies to Extremes, on Audible. In paperback.

Jenny’s article on MDMA couples therapy in the Australian Financial Review.


The 36 Questions That Lead to Love.


36 Questions: the musical.

Charley Wininger. and his book Listening to Ecstasy.

Sex educator Eleanor Hadley.


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