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Wild with Sarah Wilson
MARGARET WHEATLEY: An episode on civilization collapse (warning: truly confronting)
Ep. 122
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Margaret (Meg) Wheatley (collapse theorist, global leadership consultant) is something of a legend in her field. She has worked for 50 years helping humans adapt to their world using systems analysis, chaos theory and deep spiritualism (she’s good friends with one of my heroes the Buddhist monk Pema Chödrön). Poets, scientists and philosophers quote her writing, she has worked in countless disaster situations around the world and was commissioned to transform the leadership of large institutions such as the US Army and the National Park Service. Plus she’s the author of 12 books, including Who Do We Choose to Be? and the forthcoming Restoring Sanity. Meg has also researched the collapse of civilisations throughout history and is a leading voice among a community of scientists, economists, historians and philosophers who are arguing that our civilisation is also currently heading toward collapse.
This is a challenging conversation and the subject has its deniers. Meg steers our focus to becoming the leaders we want to see amid the cascading crises facing the world and to create “islands of sanity” amid the despair. In this conversation, we cover the responsibility of the rich, why it’s redundant to talk about saving the world, and how to sit in despair and create a meaningful life from it all.
Meg and I also recorded a second and even more challenging episode that can be found over at my Substack. In this extra episode we cover how long we’ve got left (when will collapse occur?), how to cope when others are still consuming and distracting themselves away from the issue, how to raise kids in this knowledge, where to live in coming years…
SHOW NOTES
Meg references the poet David Whyte who has also been a guest on Wild
You can purchase Who Do We Choose to Be? now and preorder Restoring Sanity (coming March 2024)
Find out about her workshops and events here
Other Wild conversations with elders: Stephen Jenkinson, Sister Helen Prejean and Margaret Atwood
If you need to know a bit more about me… head to my "about" page
For more such conversations subscribe to my Substack newsletter, it’s where I interact the most!
Get your copy of my book, This One Wild and Precious Life
Let’s connect on Instagram
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195. VANESSA ANDREOTTI: And now we have hospice modernity…(and a goodbye from Wild)
01:05:48||Ep. 195Dr Vanessa Andreotti (Indigenous Knowledge advocate; author) is a Brazilian academic who has developed a radical thesis for how to move through the multi-crises we face. In her book Hospicing Modernity: Facing Humanity's Wrongs and the Implications for Social Activism she draws on Indigenous wisdoms and entanglement theory to steer humanity through the destruction, grief and uncertainty as democracy, the growth model, “the West” crumbles around us. Dr Andreotti is the Dean of the Faculty of Education at the University of Victoria, Canada where she is also one of the designers of the Facing Human Wrongs: Climate Complexity and Relational Accountability course. She has written 100-plus papers on climate education, global justice and race. In this chat – the last in the current Wild series – she talks through how modernity is the most “adolescent” civilisation in history, how Indigenous cultures have the knowledge to assist us, how the West won’t act until “the water is up to their bum” and the value of “black belt aunties”.Get your copy of Hospicing Modernity: Facing Humanity's Wrongs and the Implications for Social Activism. Find out more about Gesturing Towards Decolonial Futures--If you need to know a bit more about me… head to my "about" pageFor more such conversations subscribe to my Substack newsletter, it’s where I interact the most!Get your copy of my book, This One Wild and Precious LifeLet’s connect on Instagram194. MARTHA BECK: Only the most nourishing chat I’ve had about anxiety ever
01:12:15||Ep. 194Dr. Martha Beck (author; “best-known life coach in America”) is about to release a book on anxiety. The international best-selling author – who holds three Harvard degrees in social science and was described by Oprah as “one of the smartest women I know” – specialises in helping people find meaning and integrity in their lives. In this episode, Sarah and Martha reconnect after 15 years to discuss their takes on the role of anxiety in our lives, and how it can be used to create purpose and direction (tune in to hear about the time Martha “bent a spoon with her mind” for Sarah!). They also share tangible techniques for using creativity to switch out of anxious spirals. Martha’s book, Beyond Anxiety: Curiosity, Creativity, and Finding Your Life’s Purpose comes out in early 2025.SHOW NOTESHere’s the newspaper column I wrote about my first meeting with Martha in 2010.I refer to previous podcasts with Dr Jill Bolte Taylor and Iain McGilchrist, and another on the role of creativity with Ian Leslie. You can read more about Martha's work here and connect on IG here. Preorder a copy of her upcoming book Beyond Anxiety: Curiosity, Creativity, and Finding Your Life's Purpose--If you need to know a bit more about me… head to my "about" pageFor more such conversations subscribe to my Substack newsletter, it’s where I interact the most!Get your copy of my book, This One Wild and Precious LifeLet’s connect on Instagram193. INDY JOHAR: The starkest collapse prognosis I’ve heard
01:18:10||Ep. 193Indy Johar (founder of Dark Matter Labs, systems designer) re-imagines and redesigns systems for a changed world. The architect and Professor of Planetary Civics at Melbourne’s RMIT and the University of Sheffield has worked with and advised organisations worldwide. Including the Scottish Government, the Mayor of London and WikiHouse, solving complex, entangled problems. Using complexity, emergence and entanglement theories he is a rare expert in this space to provide the (only) path to fixing the world, which is to say fixing our relationship with the world.This conversation goes to a level I’ve not been to before publicly. On his modelling, we don’t have any choice but to start building the world that comes next, for the current one has no viable pathway. He gives a vision for this this. And he gives a timeframe, too. For this episode, I’m providing a forum where you can talk through how you feel about the ideas and your feelings with others. Indy has offered to chime in too: Join the chat on Substack HERE.SHOW NOTESIf you are new to this collapse topic you might want to catch up via this conversation with Luke Kemp, the one with Meg Wheatley and this one with Corey Bradshaw.There are some previous guests and topics that are referenced in this chat:Nate Hagens on the future of fossil fuelsKate Raworth on Doughnut EconomicsWe talk about zero-sum theory. I talked about this with Liv Boeree, former world poker champion.We also cover the Blue Zones concept. I interviewed the man behind this, Dan Buettner, here. Indy also references the work of Iain McGilchrist, a guest a few weeks back.You can learn more about Indy's work via DarkMatterLabsConnect with Indy on socials @DarkMatter_Labs and @indy_johar192. LYNDSEY STONEBRIDGE: How would Hannah Arendt explain Trump?
01:01:01||Ep. 192Lyndsey Stonebridge (Humans rights academic, Hannah Arendt biographer) was worried about the banality of evil she was observing in the world and so dug down into the work of controversial philosopher and political theorist Hannah Arendt for insights. Her new book, We Are Free to Change the World: Hannah Arendt’s Lessons in Love and Disobedience is a guide on how to live--and think--through a moment like the one we’re in now in the wake of the US election. It draws on Arendt’s ideas about totalitarianism, loneliness, the dulling of the mind, capitalism, as well as the imperative to love the world. Lyndsey is a Professor of Humanities and Human Rights at the University of Birmingham in the U.K. and writes and broadcasts about a range of topical subjects: refugees, feminism and the moral mind. In 2023, she was elected a Fellow of the British Academy. SHOW NOTESI mention the Wild episode with BBC Washington correspondent Nick Bryant Get your copy of Lyndsey's new book, We Are Free to Change the World: Hannah Arendt’s Lessons in Love and Disobedience Read more about Lyndsey's work here and follow her on IG here --If you need to know a bit more about me… head to my "about" pageFor more such conversations subscribe to my Substack newsletter, it’s where I interact the most!Get your copy of my book, This One Wild and Precious LifeLet’s connect on Instagram191. LUKE KEMP: Will our global civilisation go the way of the Roman Empire?
01:14:07||Ep. 191Luke Kemp (historical collapse expert; associate at the Centre for the Study of Existential Risk) has studied past civilisations and mapped out a picture of how long they tend to last before they collapse, what tends to tip them and what (if anything) can be done to stall their demise. Luke works alongside Lord Martin Rees and Yuval Noah Harari, is an honorary lecturer in environmental policy at the Australian National University and his collapse insights have been covered by the BBC, the New York Times and the New Yorker. His first book, 'Goliath's Curse: The History and Future of Societal Collapse' will be published in June 2025. In this episode I get Luke to provide a bit of a 101 on how civilisations do indeed decline and perish and to update us on the latest theories on how and whether ours might make it through. The answer is surprising.SHOW NOTESHere’s Luke’s original report on complex civilisation’s lifespans.Keep up to date with Luke's work hereA few past Wild guests are referenced by Luke. You can catch the episode on Moloch with Liv Boeree here, the interview with Adam Mastroianni here and my chat with Nate Hagens hereThe first chapter of my book serialisation – about hope – is available to everyone hereAnd here are the two chapters that I reference at the end--If you need to know a bit more about me… head to my "about" pageFor more such conversations subscribe to my Substack newsletter, it’s where I interact the most!Get your copy of my book, This One Wild and Precious LifeLet’s connect on InstagramIf you need to know a bit more about me… head to my "about" pageFor more such conversations subscribe to my Substack newsletter, it’s where I interact the most!Get your copy of my book, This One Wild and Precious LifeLet’s connect on Instagram190. AMA: A post on how I write a book about collapse on Substack
28:30||Ep. 190Recently, I’ve been getting a lot of “Ask Me Anything” questions about the minutiae of writing about - and having to live through - collapse. I try to cover most of these kinds of questions as we work through the book Serialisation process, but a few get left behind. And so this week’s Wild episode covers these off.You are welcome to join the 55,000 subscribers who are following the book, chapter by chapter, week by week, here. You’ll be invited to upgrade (sorry to have to use such commercial language) to a paid subscription…this helps me to be able to dedicate most of my working week to writing said book. But don’t feel obligated. You can stay a free subscriber and read these first few chapters here and a preview of every other one!SHOW NOTESHere’s where you can start reading the first chapter of the Book SerialisationAnd here’s the link to subscribe to my Substack newsletterWant to ask me your own question…post it here--If you need to know a bit more about me… head to my "about" pageFor more such conversations subscribe to my Substack newsletter, it’s where I interact the most!Get your copy of my book, This One Wild and Precious LifeLet’s connect on Instagram and WeAre8189. JOEL PEARSON: Do we have free will? Is anything our fault?
57:55||Ep. 189Prof. Joel Pearson (Neuroscientist; AI and cognition scientist) returns to Wild, this time to discuss whether free will is an illusion. In our last chat (about intuition) the subject was raised and Joel promised to come back to discuss it further, particularly in the context of AI, algorithms, the rise of totalitarianism and our agency in systems collapse. Joel is the founder and Director of Future Minds Lab which applies neuroscience findings to art, AI, media, advertising and various philosophical quandaries. He’s also a National Health and Medical Research Council fellow and Professor of Cognitive Neuroscience at the University of New South Wales, Australia. He developed the first scientific test to measure intuition and wrote The Intuition Toolkit. In this conversation, we also cover the science of manifesting!SHOW NOTESI mention the chapter on Blame and the very robust discussion the Substack community had around it. You can join this hereHere’s the previous episode where Joel talks about the scientific proof of intuitionGet Joel’s book The Intuition Toolkit: The New Science of Knowing What without Knowing WhyFollow Joel on his Future Minds Lab Substack I previously had willpower expert Roy Baumeister on Wild to talk about how the female orgasm shapes the world! --If you need to know a bit more about me… head to my "about" pageFor more such conversations subscribe to my Substack newsletter, it’s where I interact the most!Get your copy of my book, This One Wild and Precious LifeLet’s connect on Instagram and WeAre8188. CHRISTIANA FIGUERES: On “stubborn optimism”
01:05:26||Ep. 188Christiana Figueres (the woman behind the Paris Agreement) is possibly the best-known official in the global climate change movement. The former Costa Rican diplomat and Executive Secretary of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (2010-2016), managed to bring together 195 nations to sign the historical 2015 agreement that set the “1.5C” target/warning. She wrote The Future We Choose, cohosts the Outrage + Optimism podcast, has a moth, a wasp and an orchid named after her, and has won countless international awards for her work. In this episode, we challenge each other on whether hope and optimism are still useful given we’ve passed the 1.5C threshold in February, whether the Paris Agreement is still viable almost 10 years on and the viability of the green energy transition. We don’t agree on a number of points, but we come together on what keeps us in the “fight” …love. Listen to the end with this one.SHOW NOTESThe work of rare earth minerals expert Olivia Lazard and energy futurist Nate Hagens supports the energy points I make in this episode. This international team of researchers and this team working out of France show fossil fuels will become net-energy negative in the future. We are spending more energy to get less energy than before—our net energy is “plummeting”.The world’s consumption of fossil fuels climbed to a record high last year according to the University of Exeter's Global Carbon Project and NASA. A Finnish Geological Survey finds that “global reserves are not large enough to supply enough metals to build the renewable non-fossil fuels industrial system”.According to a study on societal tipping points, a peak and fall in global oil production would bring down the entire financial and trade system like a house of cards.This chapter of my book outlines the argument in detail.And here are the first two chapters of my book, that outline my position on hope v truth.187. ELIZABETH OLDFIELD X ME: How to be Fully Alive in a collapsing world
01:12:03||Ep. 187In this SPECIAL EPISODE British coach, author and broadcaster Elizabeth Oldfield and I sit down in her London intentional community home and interview EACH OTHER on…what is sacred (and how we access it), acedia ( the moral loneliness we feel in turbulent times), how we sit in the grief and despair of things, losing friends to the cause, how to be of service, how to be Fully Alive (the title of her book) and honour This One Wild and Precious Life (mine!).Elizabeth’s book has been endorsed by Krista Tippett; she’s written and broadcast for the BBC, The Times, and The Economist; was the Director of Theos, the UK’s leading religion and society think tank; and her podcast The Sacred has featured Nick Cave, Jonathan Haidt and an incredible array of spiritualists and existential thinkers. This was a joyous meeting of spirits!SHOW NOTESVisit Elizabeth's website and subscribe to her Substack Buy your copy of Fully Alive: Tending to the Soul in Turbulent Times hereThis One Wild and Precious Life is available here --If you need to know a bit more about me… head to my "about" pageFor more such conversations subscribe to my Substack newsletter, it’s where I interact the most!Get your copy of my book, This One Wild and Precious LifeLet’s connect on Instagram and WeAre8