When will they learn?

I talk to two fellow Educational Psychotherapists about how we define what we do.We did this partly to help ourselves figure it out! But also because, being quite a niche field, we find ourselves having to explain it a lot.We got into some of our ways of working with young people, the 'task' that differentiate Educational Psychotherapy from other types of psychotherapy (we think), how we work with schools and our main influences from psychoanalytic theory and neuroscience.Here are some of the people and theories we mention, plus any specific books we reference.Graham Music - Nurturing Children; ResparkAnne Alvarez - e.g. The Thinking HeartDonald Winnicott - 'good enough'; the squiggle gameWilfred Bion - container/containedMelanie Klein - the depressive position; envyCarl Jung - DreamsAnna Freud - defence mechanismsBruce Perry - founder of The Neurosequential NetworkAngela Greenwood - Understanding, Nurturing and Working Effectively with Vulnerable Children in Schools: 'Why Can't You Hear Me'The Anna Freud National Centre for Children and Families (where Louise did her bereavement training)Emel's websiteThe Caspari Foundation (where we trained):For feedback or to get in touch with me: @miniEDresearch on Twitter or email ed@edtherapy.co.ukPlease complete this 1-minute feedback survey too!Thanks for listening!

I trained to be an Educational Psychotherapist a few years ago with the Caspari Foundation in London, but didn't think much at the time about the 'Caspari' bit!Over the years I became more curious about Irene Caspari, the incredible woman behind Educational Psychotherapy, and when I read Lynsey Daniels paper on her, in the Caspari Journal, I wanted to know more...Lynsey and I also talk about where 'EPT' has taken some of our colleagues and how the Advanced Diploma in Educational Psychotherapy has evolved - still with psychoanalytic theory at its core, but now with powerful sprinklings of neuroscience.Some people and books we mention:Irene Caspari (1976) Trouble Children in Class; The Collected Papers ((posthumously published in 1984, now out-of-print, but we hope to change this!)Friedrich Fröbel - the German educator who invented Kindergarten, and whose training Irene Caspari completed in LondonBettini Davou & Fotini Xenakis (1998) Feeling, Communicating and Thinking We also mention our staple theorists: Sigmund Freud, Anna Freud, John Bowlby, Melanie Klein.And fellow Educational Psychotherapists who have gone before us: Gerda Hanko, Muriel Barratt, Helen High, Mark Griffiths.EPIC stands for Educational Psychotherapy in the CommunityThe Caspari Foundation previously known as FAETT - the Foundation for the Advancement of Educational Psychotherapy and Therapeutic TeachingThere's more about Irene Caspari on the Caspari Foundation websiteFor feedback or to get in touch with me: @miniEDresearch on Twitter or email ed@edtherapy.co.ukPlease complete this 1-minute feedback survey too!Thanks for listening!

Marie has been a source of both inspiration and practical help on my journey as an Educational Psychotherapist, particularly through her books.But she is also really engaging to listen to, full of wisdom and real-life illustration of what are sometimes abstract theories in our work.Marie’s books, available from these and other good booksellers!Teaching the Unteachable: what teachers can do when all else fails (2008)What can I do with the kid who? A quick discipline guide for teachers to deal with disruptive pupils (2010)Attachment for Teachers: an essential handbook for trainees and NQTs (2017)Using an attachment approach in the classroom in Andrea Perry (Ed) Teenagers & Attachment: Helping Adolescents Engage with Life and Learning (2009)Marie also references Heather Geddes’s book Attachment in Classroom: A Practical Guide for Schools (2006)Marie’s organisation is Trauma Responsive EducationA summary of Marie’s RETHINK model on Dr Chris Moore’s great blog EdpsychinsightThe Caspari Foundation (where we trained):For feedback or to get in touch with me: @miniEDresearch on Twitter or email ed@edtherapy.co.ukPlease complete this 1-minute feedback survey too!Thanks for listening!

Ingrid Cleaver is a vastly experienced Educational Psychotherapist, SENDCO and teacher - now in semi-retirement but continuing to contribute to the EPT community through her writing and teaching work.Her article in the 2022 Caspari Journal is entitled -Learning Begins Long Before Children Arrive at School: A brief exploration of certain developmental theories and links tolearning in Educational Psychotherapy (Contact the Caspari Foundation for copies of the journal).It is this paper that got me thinking about how we use our knowledge of developmental stages to figure out where to start with the young people we work with.Ingrid explains, with lively examples, how some of this work looks in action, and also how we can help teachers to deal with and contain the difficult feelings that arise in the classroom.Here are some of the people and theories we mention, plus any specific books we reference:Muriel Barratt - 'second-chance learning'; see also Jenny Dover and Jill Salmon's writing in Reaching and Teaching Through Educational Psychotherapy (2007)Dr Gabor MatéWe also mention the 'big names' for us: Sigmund Freud, Anna Freud, Donald Winnicott, Melanie Klein.For feedback or to get in touch with me: @miniEDresearch on Twitter or email ed@edtherapy.co.ukPlease complete this 1-minute feedback survey too!Thanks for listening!

Jo and I are colleagues as Compassion-focused Coaching Supervisors with The Difference.He is a Child and Educational Psychologist, Royal Society of Arts and Churchill Fellow, advisor to Foundation for Education Development and Queens Commonwealth Trust, writer, researcher, podcasterand also a very cool human being.I'd been wanting to talk to him for ages about Educational Psychology, what he feels it is and needs to be, and what similarities and differences we see between our fields. We ended up talking a lot about Supervision and working with staff, and also about systemic issues.I hope there will be more - it felt like we only scratched the surface!References-wise, he mentions the ideas of Urie Bronfennbrenner and his ecological systems theory which influenced the direction Jo's work has taken.Jo is a prolific thinker, researcher and writer and I recommend you check out his work below.He is currently researching:compassion as an approach for supporting care giving (https://bit.ly/3SXIyMa); and collecting the wisdom of Educational Psychologists with over 20 yrs experience to influence practice for the next 20 years (https://constellationspsychology.notion.site/The-Psychology-Elders-Project-93cee0ccd5e246bf8f81f49ff04a4d5b).Here is his newsletter:https://drjotaylor.substack.com/his podcast:https://pod.link/1439247772and website:www.drjotaylor.comFor feedback or to get in touch with me: @miniEDresearch on Twitter or email ed@edtherapy.co.ukPlease complete this 1-minute feedback survey too.Thanks for listening!

As I said for Part 1 of this interview, Jo and I are colleagues as Compassion-focused Coaching Supervisors with The Difference.He is a Child and Educational Psychologist, Royal Society of Arts and Churchill Fellow, advisor to Foundation for Education Development and Queens Commonwealth Trust, writer, researcher, podcaster and also a very cool human being.I had originally intended to talk to Jo about the similarities and differences in our work, but there ended up being too many other interesting avenues to go down - mostly around Supervision and working with staff in schools. So this time, I tried to stay focused, and we talked at length about what I try to do and how that differs, or not, from Educational Psychology.References:Heather Geddes's Learning Triangles in  Attachment in Classroom: A Practical Guide for Schools (2006)Jo's podcast The SizzleJo is a prolific thinker, researcher and writer and I recommend you check out his work below.He is currently researching:compassion as an approach for supporting care giving (https://bit.ly/3SXIyMa);and collecting the wisdom of Educational Psychologists with over 20 yrs experience to influence practice for the next 20 years (https://constellationspsychology.notion.site/The-Psychology-Elders-Project-93cee0ccd5e246bf8f81f49ff04a4d5b).Here is his newsletter:https://drjotaylor.substack.com/and website:www.drjotaylor.comFor feedback or to get in touch with me: @miniEDresearch on Twitter or email ed@edtherapy.co.ukPlease complete this 1-minute feedback survey too.Thanks for listening!

This is another interview that’s a long time coming - I’ve known Lee Marsden since I trained with the Caspari Foundation. She’s one of the very experienced Educational Psychotherapists still involved with the Caspari Foundation and its Advanced Diploma. She has also been an invaluable support to me as I’ve taken on editing the Caspari Journal with another esteemed colleague, Louise Mullier.Lee trained as a Secondary English teacher and then had a fascinating journey through her career, helping children and staff in schools, in Simmons House Adolescent Unit, the Tavistock Day Unit and the Cassel Hospital, a psychiatric unit in Richmond.I’d been wanting to talk to her for some time about working in multidisciplinary settings, an area I am both curious about and very challenged by!This became a really interesting discussion of how this type of work can be most effective - for example, working with parents and doing reflective work with staff; and also how things have and could change within the education system, and for us as therapeutic teachers and/or Educational Psychotherapists.References:The Internal and External Worlds of Children and Adolescents: Collaborative Therapeutic Care (The Cassel Hospital Monograph Series) Eds. Lesley Day & Denis Flynn Not Now, Bernard by David McKeeDon’t Dawdle Dorothy by Margrit CruickshankThe Caspari FoundationFor feedback or to get in touch with me email ed@edtherapy.co.ukPlease complete this 1-minute feedback survey too.Thanks for listening!