What the REF?!

Simon and Ola are live at the 2025 Research & Innovation Conference, hearing Professor Dame Jessica Corner outline how REF2029 is moving forward - and we’ve got immediate reactions.

In this lively episode of What the Ref, Gemma, James and Simon guide listeners through the endlessly surprising world of the Research Excellence Framework. Proceedings begin with Simon recounting the final NTO workshop of the year, held at the University of Exeter, which has become the national home of hyper-efficient scrutiny. The team is now preparing an expanded workshop programme for next year.From there, the conversation takes a dramatic turn. Mere minutes before recording, news dropped that the REF pause will end on 10 December, accompanied by major presentations from Dame Jessica Corner and the REF team. Cue excitement, mild panic, and the realisation that the next few weeks may involve emergency podcast episodes. Simon and Ola will be attending the Universities UK conference in person, and providing near-live commentary, possibly including gasps or cheers.The trio reflect on the sector’s peculiar ‘pause that was not a pause’. Although REF planning was officially frozen, universities have continued diligently preparing outputs, impacts and PCE statements. Everyone agrees that many colleagues deserve medals, naps or both.Listeners’ questions from the Hidden REF Festival prompt discussions about non-traditional outputs, the effort required to submit them, and the broader ambitions of the 5% manifesto. The team emphasises that the goal is not to create NTOs for the sake of it, but to recognise existing work fairly and transparently. The episode closes with an exploration of PCE, its long-overdue role in improving research culture, and a collective hope that, with REF 2029, meaningful change may finally be on the way.If there’s anything about the REF that you would like us to investigate, please get in touch with wtref@hidden-ref.org.Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: James Baker, Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - and Simon Hettrick, and our producer is Ben Thomas.

In this episode of What the REF?!, James, Gemma, and Simon reflect on an extraordinary few days at the Hidden REF Festival and explore what the new Post-16 Education and Skills White Paper could mean for the future of research assessment. The conversation begins with highlights from the Festival, where workshops, think-aloud experiments, and even a debate over Tom Cruise films versus K-pop tracks became creative ways to unpack how we evaluate non-traditionally submitted research outputs. What started as playful exercises quickly revealed deeper insights into the heuristics people use when making judgments, and how those can be made more explicit and fair in academic assessment.The team also share the emotional impact of hearing from past Hidden REF competition winners. Stories like that of Laura Henderson, whose recognition in a Hidden Role has since led to expanded research support capacity in hospitals, underline why this work matters so much. A little recognition, they note, can have transformative effects on careers, institutions, and even patient outcomes. Alongside these moving moments, the Festival also laid the groundwork for expert working groups that will help shape guidelines for assessing diverse outputs, ensuring that the community itself drives the change.From there, the discussion turns to the White Paper, which reaffirms the REF as the UK’s central mechanism for assessing research but hints at shifts in emphasis. The UK government’s focus on economic impact and the critique of a “one-size-fits-all” model of excellence suggest that the REF of the future may look very different. The team weigh up what this could mean for universities and for the broader definition of research excellence, noting both the risks of narrowing the focus and the opportunities for more inclusive recognition.Together, these two threads — the grassroots energy of the Hidden REF Festival and the top-down direction of government policy — paint a picture of a research culture in transition. With the next Hidden REF competition on the horizon, the hosts argue that now is the moment to pull up our socks and get on with reshaping how excellence is defined and rewarded.If there’s anything about the REF that you would like us to investigate, please get in touch with wtref@hidden-ref.org.Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: James Baker, Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - and Simon Hettrick, and our producer is Ben Thomas.

Welcome back to What the REF?!, the only podcast where academics make bureaucracy sound almost fun. Simon, James, and Gemma welcome new team member Dr Ola Thomson, who brings both organisational-behaviour expertise and the calm assurance of someone who’s already read the entire REF guidance.Ola compares the REF to an iceberg: what you see is a harmless evaluation exercise, but beneath lurk strategy, politics, performance management, and possibly a kraken of accountability. The hosts debate why the REF's noble pursuit of excellence ends up raising everyone’s blood pressure.Between discussions of “research culture,” “the human element,” and whether wombats could manage universities, the team delivers surprisingly profound insights—occasionally disguised as jokes.By the end, listeners may find themselves reconsidering their life choices, their institutional policies, and whether being “REF-able” is a compliment. The REF will find you. But at least now, you’ll understand its motives.

This week on What the Ref, the gang (Gemma, James, and Simon) score a big guest: Lizzie Gadd, one of the UK’s most respected voices in research assessment. If you’ve ever wondered why people keep muttering about “the REF pause” like it’s a cliffhanger in a Netflix series, this episode’s for you.Lizzie dives straight into the thorny issue of research culture—what it is, why it matters, and why simply having shiny labs and big grants doesn’t mean your environment is excellent if the culture is toxic, precarious, or exclusive. She makes the case that culture isn’t a “nice-to-have” add-on but part of research excellence itself. Hygiene factors (like reporting misconduct or tackling pay gaps), she argues, are basic standards, not gold-star achievements.The conversation also tackles REF politics, funding pressures, and the dreaded “publish or perish” mindset. Lizzie suggests that shifting weight away from outputs could encourage team science and more honest research practices. The hosts riff on rumors, fears, and the endless semantics of REF-speak, but ultimately agree with Lizzie’s mantra: stop dithering, just get on with it, and learn as we go.It’s a thoughtful, fun, and surprisingly hopeful chat about how the UK can build research cultures worth celebrating—not just surviving.If there’s anything about the REF that you would like us to investigate, please get in touch with wtref@hidden-ref.org.Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: James Baker, Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - and Simon Hettrick, and our producer is Ben Thomas.