Trapped: The IPP Prisoner Scandal

Former Justice Secretary, Alex Chalk KC, and retired judges, Sir John Saunders and Simon Tonking, speak candidly about the IPP scandal. Alex Chalk, who served as Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice until 2024, speaks about the moral and political complexity of IPPs, calling the sentence “almost totalitarian”, a phrase that would have been politically explosive while he headed up the Ministry of Justice. While in office, Chalk introduced a major reform, reducing the licence period for released IPP prisoners from 10 years to 3, freeing around 1,742 people from lifelong supervision. He characterises IPPs as a “toxic legacy” and a “stain” on the justice system but explains why he did not accept calls to give all remaining IPP prisoners a definite end date. He argues that many long-term unreleased IPP prisoners may have been made more dangerous by the system itself, leaving ministers fearful of the political and personal consequences if a released prisoner were to reoffend seriously. This is the political fear at the heart of the issue: a fear that keeps ministers from doing what even they privately acknowledge is morally right. The retired judges, Simon Tonking and Sir John Saunders explain how the 2003 Criminal Justice Act made IPPs almost mandatory, even for offences with very short tariffs. They now regret their role in imposing sentences that have kept people incarcerated many years beyond the punishment originally judged proportionate to their crimes. They describe systemic failures: lack of courses, risk-averse parole decisions, and an impossibly high release test. They argue that justice requires one simple remedy: an end date. Without this, they warn, prisoners are left without the most basic element of rehabilitation: hope. There is a growing contradiction within the justice system: nearly all experts, including former ministers, judges, parole board members and human rights organisations, now agree the IPP sentence is fundamentally unfair. Yet political fear, of public backlash, media headlines and potential reoffending, continues to block the bold action needed to resolve the crisis. Despite the recent improvements, progress is too limited to provide justice to those, like the Roddy’s brother Rob, who remain imprisoned far beyond their tariffs. With more than 2,500 people still in custody on IPPs, many over a decade past their tariff, the current pace of release is too slow - but if politicians won’t end this injustice, who will? Contributors in order of appearance: Rt Hon Alex Chalk, KC Roddy Russell, brother of IPP serving prisoner Robert Simon Tonking, Retired Judge Sir John Saunders, Retired High Court Judge Andrew Morris, former IPP prisoner and Trustee of the Howard League Amy-Clare Martin, Crime Correspondent, The Independent @AmyClareMartin Production Credits:Presenter: Roddy Russell | @1roddyRussellExecutive Producer: Melissa FitzGerald | @MelissafitzgProducer: Steve Langridge | @SMLANGERSConsultant: Hank RossiAn Ear Worm Production for the Institute of NowGet involved:➕ Follow Trapped on X, TikTok, Facebook or Instagram @Trapped_Pod 🔎 Search #IPPScandal for more stories. 🗣️ Read more about the IPP campaign: UNGRIPP | www.ungripp.com | @UNGRIPP | IPP Committee In Action @ActionIpp | injustice_of_ipp ✔️ Like, follow and share this podcast to get people listening: knowledge is power and the more who know, the harder it is for injustice to take place. ✍️ Write to your MP and ask them to raise questions about IPPs in Parliament⬇️ Download the Trapped series episode transcripts here: https://drive.google.com___

An update on Thomas Whites’s story and his sister Clara gets ordained as a minister at Church on the Street. In this episode we hear from Clara White, who updates us on her brother Thomas, who was sentenced in 2012 for the theft of a mobile phone. Thomas was given an IPP sentence with a two-year tariff and has now been imprisoned for over a decade. We last heard from them in our very first episode, ‘Ghost Prisoners’.Clara has campaigned tirelessly for Thomas’s release and mental health treatment, collaborating with Bishop Mick Fleming of Church on the Street in Burnley. Together, they have fought to have Thomas moved from prison to a secure hospital. Clara’s faith and activism led Mick to call her an “accidental preacher,” and eventually, she began training for ordination.In the summer of 2025, Clara finally receives the incredible news that Thomas will be moved to hospital: a moment of immense emotion and relief but which also brings new challenges. This is a familiar story for Roddy as his brother Robert makes his own journey from prison to a secure hospital facility.Roddy also meets David Kirk-Beedon, a former prison chaplain, who discusses his first-hand experiences of the mental health decline that those serving IPP sentences face within the prison system, to whom, he says, the state has a ‘duty of care’. In September 2025, Roddy attends Clara’s ordination as a minister at Church on the Street. We hear how Clara's faith has helped support her through the many dark moments she and her family have faced since Thomas’s IPP sentence was handed down. Thomas’s transfer brings newfound hope: he experiences small freedoms like eating with real cutlery and sleeping with his door unlocked. Yet despite his move to a secure hospital, Thomas, like Robert Russell, is still serving an IPP sentence. We close with Bishop Mick’s invocation of Exodus ringing in our ears: “Let my people go.” Contributors in order of appearance: Pastor Clara White | https://www.cots-ministries.co.uk/team-members/ Bishop Mick Fleming | https://www.cots-ministries.co.uk/ David Kirk Beedon | author and former Prison Chaplain  Production Credits:Presenter: Roddy Russell | @1roddyRussellExecutive Producer: Melissa FitzGerald | @MelissafitzgProducer: Steve Langridge | @SMLANGERSConsultant: Hank RossiAn Ear Worm Production for the Institute of NowGet involved:➕ Follow Trapped on X, TikTok, Facebook or Instagram @Trapped_Pod 🔎 Search #IPPScandal for more stories. 🗣️ Read more about the IPP campaign: UNGRIPP | www.ungripp.com | @UNGRIPP | IPP Committee In Action @ActionIpp | injustice_of_ipp ✔️ Like, follow and share this podcast to get people listening: knowledge is power and the more who know, the harder it is for injustice to take place. ✍️ Write to your MP and ask them to raise questions about IPPs in Parliament⬇️ Download the Trapped series episode transcripts here: https://drive.google.com___

The IPP campaign in the spotlight: campaigners stage a protest outside Parliament, while inside, Lord Thomas backs new recommendations to end IPPs.The Trapped team report on two new IPP campaigns: one inside and one outside of Westminster, during the Summer of 2025. On 18th July 2025, the TikTok campaign group injustice_of_ipp staged a demonstration outside Parliament. Protesters and former prisoners describe the inhumane impact of indefinite detention, including widespread mental health crises and suicides (95 deaths to date).Inside Parliament, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, a former senior judge, reflects on how the IPP system was 'a failed experiment', intended to predict dangerousness but resulting in unjust, indefinite punishment. In June, 2025 Lord Thomas and The Howard League for Penal Reform published new recommendations to end the “IPP stain,” arguing that the government’s current IPP Action Plan is ineffective. How will the Prison’s Minister, Lord James Timpson, and the government, react?Read the Howard League’s 2025 proposals to end the detention of people on IPP sentences: https://howardleague.org/news/expert-working-group-publishes-proposals-to-end-the-detention-of-people-on-ipp-sentences/Contributors in order of appearance:Deborah Ingram, mother of IPP serving prisoner LeviRoddy Russell, brother of IPP serving prisoner RobertStacey Clough, partner of IPP serving prisonerAndrew Morris, Former IPP prisoner and Trustee of the Howard LeagueLord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales (2013 – 2017)David Parker, IPP prisoner on licenceMandy Slade, mother of David ParkerKatie Best, wife of IPP serving prisoner JohnMelissa, former prison officer | Off the Cuff with MelAndrea Coomber, Chief Executive of the Howard League for Penal Reform | howardleague.orgVoices in archive:Lord Daniel MoylanLord James Timpson, Minister of State for Prisons, Parole and ProbationProduction Credits:Presenter: Roddy Russell | @1roddyRussellExecutive Producer: Melissa FitzGerald | @MelissafitzgProducer: Steve Langridge | @SMLANGERSConsultant: Hank RossiAn Ear Worm Production for the Institute of NowGet involved:➕ Follow Trapped on X, TikTok, Facebook or Instagram @Trapped_Pod 🔎 Search #IPPScandal for more stories. 🗣️ Read more about the IPP campaign: UNGRIPP | www.ungripp.com | @UNGRIPP | IPP Committee In Action @ActionIpp | injustice_of_ipp ✔️ Like, follow and share this podcast to get people listening: knowledge is power and the more who know, the harder it is for injustice to take place. ✍️ Write to your MP and ask them to raise questions about IPPs in Parliament⬇️ Download the Trapped series episode transcripts here: https://drive.google.com___

An update on Victoria’s story. Plus the Prison and Probation Ombudsman, Adrian Usher, Chief Executive of the Howard League, Andrea Coomber, and leading barrister Dr. Felicity Gerry KC, speak about their work to end the IPP Scandal.We last heard from Victoria in Episode 9 ‘Set Up to Fail’ where she’s known as Madison, because she didn’t want to give away her identity. Victoria is currently serving an IPP in the community. Sentenced to a 3 year tariff at 18, Victoria served 12 years in prison and has since been recalled twice for minor licence breaches. We hear how she’s now rebuilding her life on the outside, having battled severe self-harm, poor mental health, and the lasting psychological impact of indefinite detention.We also hear from Adrian Usher, the Prison and Probation Ombudsman (PPO). In September 2023, the PPO issued a bulletin called ‘Learning Lessons Bulletin on the self-inflicted deaths of IPP prisoners’ to highlight how the IPPs sentence presents a unique risk factor for hopelessness and suicide. The Chief Executive of the Howard League, Andrea Coomber, explains how most IPP prisoner recalls are for technical breaches, not new crimes. And leading barrister Dr. Felicity Gerry KC, condemns the IPP sentence as cruel, ineffective, and tantamount to ‘state-sponsored torture.’Finally we meet Victoria’s mum, Karen who describes years of anguish and deteriorating health. Despite some progress, like some probation officers avoiding unnecessary recalls, prison governors becoming more aware of IPPs’ unique needs, and campaigns in Parliament, the uncertainty and hopelessness of the IPP sentence continues to devastate lives.Contributors in order of appearance:Victoria, IPP prisoner on licenceRoddy Russell, brother of IPP serving prisoner Robert RussellAdrian Usher, Prison and Probation Ombudsman | ppo.gov.uk Andrea Coomber, Chief Executive of the Howard League for Penal Reform | howardleague.orgDr Felicity Gerry KC, Libertas Chambers, London & Crocket Chambers, Melbourne | felicitygerry.comKaren, Victoria’s mumProduction Credits:Presenter: Roddy Russell | @1roddyRussellExecutive Producer: Melissa FitzGerald | @MelissafitzgProducer: Steve Langridge | @SMLANGERSConsultant: Hank RossiAn Ear Worm Production for the Institute of NowGet involved:➕ Follow Trapped on X, TikTok, Facebook or Instagram @Trapped_Pod 🔎 Search #IPPScandal for more stories. 🗣️ Read more about the IPP campaign: UNGRIPP | www.ungripp.com | @UNGRIPP | IPP Committee In Action @ActionIpp | injustice_of_ipp ✔️ Like, follow and share this podcast to get people listening: knowledge is power and the more who know, the harder it is for injustice to take place. ✍️ Write to your MP and ask them to raise questions about IPPs in Parliament⬇️ Download the Trapped series episode transcripts here: https://drive.google.com___

Roddy Russell meets Lord Tony Woodley and former Prison Chaplain, David Kirk Beedon, who are both campaigning against indeterminate sentences.First, we must pass on some heartbreaking news about Josh McRae, whose story we featured in Trapped Episode 16. Josh tragically died at HMP Long Lartin, aged 34 in September 2024. An inquest into the cause of his death is ongoing. Rest in peace, Josh McRae.More than a year since we last heard from him, we catch up with Roddy Russell whose brother Robert, is still serving an IPP sentence, handed down in 2009.  Roddy travels to Westminster in June 2025 to meet Lord Tony Woodley, whose Private Member’s Bill advocating resentencing for IPP prisoners is on the verge of reaching the ‘Committee stage’, prompting a debate in the House of Lords. Roddy wants to learn more about Lord Woodley's Private Member’s Bill and the prospect of the Bill making any significant changes for those serving IPP sentences.As the IPP debate commences in the House of Lords on the 4th July 2025, Roddy meets the author and former Prison Chaplain, David Kirk Beedon whose book, ‘Pastoral Care for the Incarcerated: Hope Deferred, Humanity Diminished?’ focuses on the experiences of those serving indeterminate sentences. David provides Roddy with an insight into the inner workings of prison and the Ministry of Justice.In the immediate aftermath of the IPP debate, we hear from Andrew Morris, Richard Garside and Baroness Fox, who all respond strongly to the Prison Minister, Lord James Timpson's closing speech. With his Private Member’s Bill for resentencing IPP prisoners in limbo, Lord Woodley leaves Roddy with words of encouragement and a rallying call: “we don’t give up”.Contributors in order of appearance:Lord Tony WoodleyRoddy Russell, brother of IPP serving prisoner Robert RussellDavid Kirk Beedon, author and former Prison Chaplain‘Pastoral Care for the Incarcerated: Hope deferred, humanity diminished?’ (Palgrave-Macmillan 2022)Andrew Morris, former IPP prisonerRichard Garside, The Centre for Crime and Justice StudiesBaroness Claire FoxVoices in Archive:Lord Tony WoodleyLord Edward GarnierLord Michael HastingsBaroness Claire FoxLord James Timpson, Minister of State for Prisons, Parole and Probation Production Credits:Presenter: Roddy Russell | @1roddyRussellExecutive Producer: Melissa FitzGerald | @MelissafitzgProducer: Steve Langridge | @SMLANGERSConsultant: Hank Rossi An Ear Worm Production for the Institute of NowGet involved:➕ Follow Trapped on X, TikTok, Facebook or Instagram @Trapped_Pod 🔎 Search #IPPScandal for more stories. 🗣️ Read more about the IPP campaign: UNGRIPP | www.ungripp.com | @UNGRIPP | IPP Committee In Action @ActionIpp | injustice_of_ipp ✔️ Like, follow and share this podcast to get people listening: knowledge is power and the more who know, the harder it is for injustice to take place. ✍️ Write to your MP and ask them to raise questions about IPPs in Parliament⬇️ Download the Trapped series episode transcripts here: https://drive.google.com___

Theresa and Josh’s story, plus Roddy Russell meets the Anglican Bishop for HM Prisons and delivers a letter of protest to 10 Downing St. Today we hear from Theresa, whose son Josh has been serving an IPP sentence since he was 18. Josh was sentenced to an IPP in 2008 for GBH, he’s now 34. When Sam meets Theresa in May 2024, Josh is still recovering from his recent set-back with the parole board. Theresa has shared an open letter from Josh in prison, written to alert the outside world of his crisis.We also catch up with Roddy Russell who was featured in Episode 4: A Catch 22 and who has now had the first visit in 4 ½ years with his brother Robert, who is serving an IPP at HMP Swaleside, Roddy doesn’t recognise his brother at first. Roddy also meets the Right Reverend Rachel Treweek, the Bishop of Gloucester, whose diocese covers the Forest of Dean, where Roddy and Robert grew up. Roddy is keen to raise Robert’s plight with Bishop Rachel as she sits in the House of Lords as the Bishop for Prisons. Bishop Rachel wants to see the end of the historic IPP sentences and she has since met Robert in prison to pray with him. Despite the welcome amendment to the Victim’s and Prisoners Act 2024, which has shortened the license period for IPP prisoners in the community from 10 to 3 years, for the IPP prisoners like Josh who are trapped inside on this indeterminate sentence, it doesn’t help them at all. Against the background of the prison crisis making headlines, a group of leading campaigners send an open letter to the new Labour Government to act quickly on IPPs.Roddy Russell is amongst those who travel to London to hand-deliver the letter to the Ministry of Justice. We hear from Roddy and his fellow campaigners outside of the MOJ as they reflect on the appointment of James Timpson as Minister of State for Prisons, Parole and Probation. Will he and the Labour Government finally put an end to the IPP scandal? Josh has a message for James Timpson and the other politicians: ‘imagine I was your son, please help me. I'm begging you.’Contributors in order of appearance: Theresa, mother of IPP serving prisoner Josh Mcrae Roddy Russell, brother of IPP serving prisoner Robert RussellThe Rt Revd Rachel Treweek, Bishop of Gloucester and Anglican Bishop for HM PrisonsMarc Conway, IPP prisoner on licenseAndrew Morris, IPP prisoner on license  Richard Garside, The Centre for Crime and Justice StudiesVoices in Archive:James Timpson, Minister of State for Prisons, Parole and ProbationCredits: Reporter: Samantha Asumadu | @SamanthaAsumadu Executive Producer: Melissa FitzGerald | @Melissafitzg Producer: Steve Langridge | @SMLANGERS Consultant: Hank Rossi An Ear Worm Production for the Institute of NowGet involved:➕ Follow Trapped on X, TikTok, Facebook or Instagram @Trapped_Pod 🔎 Search #IPPScandal for more stories. 🗣️ Read more about the IPP campaign: UNGRIPP | www.ungripp.com | @UNGRIPP | IPP Committee In Action @ActionIpp | injustice_of_ipp ✔️ Like, follow and share this podcast to get people listening: knowledge is power and the more who know, the harder it is for injustice to take place. ✍️ Write to your MP and ask them to raise questions about IPPs in Parliament⬇️ Download the Trapped series episode transcripts here: https://drive.google.com___

An exclusive interview with Martin Jones CBE, appointed His Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Probation in March 2024. Prior to that, he was Chief Executive of the Parole Board from 2015.Sam meets Martin Jones at the MOJ building, 102 Petty France, Westminster in July 2024 to discuss the IPP scandal in the shadow of the looming prisons crisis. It had been a big week for criminal justice: the new Justice Minister, Shabana Mahmood had just announced she was dealing with the crisis by allowing the early release of prisoners on standard determinate sentences after serving 40% of their sentences in custody. However, Martin tells Sam that 97% of probation areas are falling short of expectations, an extraordinary figure which starkly highlights a system that is not only in crisis, but has spectacularly failed. Martin’s message to the new government is that they need to invest in an already struggling probation service. The system is broken everywhere and there are no quick fixes. And he says he hopes the new government will “look again” at IPP sentences, which are “hugely costly, hugely burdensome for the system”.Contributors in order of appearance:Martin Jones CBE, HM Chief Inspector of Probation | @jones_martinwVoices in Archive:Shabana Mahmood, Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor | @ShabanaMahmoodCredits:Reporter: Samantha Asumadu | @SamanthaAsumaduExecutive Producer: Melissa FitzGerald | @melissafitzgProducer: Steve Langridge | @SMLANGERSConsultant: Hank RossiAn Ear Worm Production for the Institute of NowGet involved:➕ Follow Trapped on X, TikTok, Facebook or Instagram @Trapped_Pod 🔎 Search #IPPScandal for more stories. 🗣️ Read more about the IPP campaign: UNGRIPP | www.ungripp.com | @UNGRIPP | IPP Committee In Action @ActionIpp | injustice_of_ipp ✔️ Like, follow and share this podcast to get people listening: knowledge is power and the more who know, the harder it is for injustice to take place. ✍️ Write to your MP and ask them to raise questions about IPPs in Parliament⬇️ Download the Trapped series episode transcripts here: https://drive.google.com___

Rob and Sara’s story. Sam investigates the impact of recall on IPP prisoners in the community. Change is finally coming - how will it affect them?  Rob was given an IPP sentence in 2008 and he’s been recalled back to prison 4 times since then. His partner Sara is a campaigner with UNGRIPP, The United Group for Reform of IPP: they met through the work she was doing. Sam meets them in Manchester in May 2024, just as the Victim’s and Prisoner’s Bill is making its way towards a conclusion in Parliament. This bill is bringing in significant reforms to the way that IPP prisoner’s licenses work.   The IPP license period will be changed from 10 to 3 years for termination with a sunset clause which means that if the license is not terminated at the direction of the Parole Board after 3 years, it will be automatically terminated after a further two years. This will have a direct impact on Rob and other IPP prisoners on license in the community, like him. But behind the headlines are real stories about real people, so Sam is keen to find out how prisoners on license like Rob are coping. She also speaks to the prison lawyers Emma McClure and Andrew Sperling and Dr Alice Edwards the UK Special Rapporteur to get their takes on the recall ‘merry-go-round'.  Contributors in order of appearance:  Rob Dutton, IPP prisoner on license Sara Ramsden, Rob’s partner and campaigner Emma McClure, Prison Law Solicitor  Andrew Sperling, Solicitor Advocate @AndrewSperling Dr. Alice Edwards, UN Special Rapporteur on Torture @DrAliceJEdwards  Credits:  Reporter: Samantha Asumadu @SamanthaAsumadu Executive Producer: Melissa FitzGerald @melissafitzg Producer: Steve Langridge @SMLANGERS Consultant: Hank Rossi  An Ear Worm Production for the Institute of NowGet involved:➕ Follow Trapped on X, TikTok, Facebook or Instagram @Trapped_Pod 🔎 Search #IPPScandal for more stories. 🗣️ Read more about the IPP campaign: UNGRIPP | www.ungripp.com | @UNGRIPP | IPP Committee In Action @ActionIpp | injustice_of_ipp ✔️ Like, follow and share this podcast to get people listening: knowledge is power and the more who know, the harder it is for injustice to take place. ✍️ Write to your MP and ask them to raise questions about IPPs in Parliament⬇️ Download the Trapped series episode transcripts here: https://drive.google.com___