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The Reaching Higher Podcast
Why Human Skills Will Beat AI in the Workplace — Aaron Strout & Jenn Whitmer
In this special crossover episode, Aaron trades his usual hosting chair for the guest seat alongside "Joyosity" author Jenn Whitmer — and the two are interviewed by none other than bestselling author and Non-Obvious Company founder Rohit Bhargava. What unfolds is a rich, candid conversation about two books, two missions, and one shared conviction: that humanity — joy, purpose, belonging, and genuine human connection — is the most powerful differentiator in an age of accelerating technology.
What We Cover
Joy at work isn't soft — it's strategic. Jenn makes the case that joy doesn't belong on the sidelines of business; it belongs at the center. She draws from occupational psychology research to show that when leaders prioritize joy — defined by three markers: feeling fortunate in your work, a sense of connection and belonging, and a sense of purpose — they unlock exactly the business results that number-crunchers care about.
The cultural myth of "earning" joy. Why do so many people feel they don't deserve joy at work? Jenn traces it back to deep-seated Western cultural stories around productivity and worthiness. Her framework — the Joy Ratio — argues we should spend 35% of our time in joyful work and no more than 10% in toil, and that toil, not work itself, is joy's true opposite.
Why Aaron left "AI" out of his book title. Aaron shares the deliberate thinking behind Wired for Purpose — why he chose to anchor his message in humanity rather than technology, even as a longtime early adopter, and what the physiological evidence says about calm under pressure, gratitude, and giving before you get.
Purpose in an age of tribalism. Aaron discusses why it's especially hard to find purpose right now — personally, professionally, and politically — and why he believes it starts with self-happiness before it can radiate outward to others.
Remote work and the joy of belonging. Can hybrid and remote teams still cultivate genuine connection? Jenn says yes — but only with intentionality. Companies that do it best, she notes, find ways to gather people physically at least once a year, even at small scale.
Community building as a competitive advantage. Rohit reflects on Aaron's long track record of investing in communities — and Aaron unpacks the philosophy behind it, including how 50 one-on-one conversations with someone in need ultimately built a thriving, reciprocal community around his work.
What they'd change about their books. Both authors get refreshingly honest: Aaron reflects on a healthcare chapter that went more technical than he'd have liked, and Jenn admits she may have included too many "how to do it" options — a teacher's instinct she couldn't quite suppress.
The power of storytelling. The conversation closes on why stories are the engine of every great business book — from Jenn opening Joyosity on the couch the day she was fired, to Aaron's belief that the business books that last are the ones that feel like something more.
Links & Resources
📘 Wired for Purpose by Aaron Strout — https://getwiredforpurpose.com
📘 Joyosity by Jenn Whitmer — https://jennwhitmer.com/books | Amazon -- https://www.amazon.com/Joyosity-Art-Cultivating-Joy-Work/dp/1646872851
📘 Non-Obvious Thinking by Rohit Bhargava — https://nonobvious.com
🎙 The Non-Obvious Show (Rohit's podcast) — https://nonobvious.com/podcast/
🎙 The Joyosity Podcast (Jenn's podcast) — https://jennwhitmer.com/joyosity-podcast
🔗 Ted Rubin (mentioned by Aaron) — https://tedrubin.com
Special thanks to Sydney Williams for cover art and show intro/outros. James Cain for music. XDS [https://madebyxds.com/] for website design and Ben Strout as assistant executive producer and sound engineer.
More episodes
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22. Three Healthcare Titans on AI, Equity, and Fixing What's Broken
58:59||Season 2, Ep. 22What happens when you put three of healthcare's sharpest minds in the same room? You get a masterclass in what it's actually going to take to fix a broken system.In this special panel episode, host Aaron Strout is joined by Dr. Amy Abernethy, co-founder of Highlander Health, former FDA Principal Deputy Commissioner, and hematologist-oncologist with 500+ published works; Seema Verma, EVP & GM of Oracle Health and Life Sciences and former CMS Administrator who championed the landmark Patients Over Paperwork initiative; and Christopher Kunney, FHIMSS-credentialed digital transformation strategist, Managing Partner at IOTech Consulting, and 2024 HIMSS Changemaker Award recipient.Together they tackle AI's real promise and persistent hype, the EHR burden on clinicians, why interoperability remains a willingness problem more than a technology one, the dangers of careless digital transformation for underserved communities, and what it takes to lead through change without losing the human element of care. This one is not to be missed.Show Links * Dr. Amy Abernethy on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amyabernethy/* Seema Verma's Oracle Bio: https://www.oracle.com/corporate/executives/seema-verma/* Oracle Next-Generation EHR: https://www.oracle.com/news/announcement/oracle-unveils-next-generation-ehr-2024-10-29/* Christopher Kunney on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopherkunney/* Christopher's Podcast — Straight Outta Health IT: https://www.youtube.com/@StraightOuttaHealthIT-ti6cf21. Mallory McMorrow on Running for US Senate, Fighting Hate, and Why Design Thinking Makes Better Politicians
37:20||Season 2, Ep. 21Re-posting this episode with Michigan State Senator and 2026 US Senate candidate Mallory McMorrow who brings a refreshing, no-bullshit approach to politics — one rooted not in law school, but in industrial design. In this candid conversation, Mallory shares how her Notre Dame design background shaped her problem-solving mindset, her mother's powerful example of faith-in-action over performative religion, and the now-viral 2022 Senate floor speech that changed everything. She unpacks her new book, Hate Won't Win, a part memoir, part step-by-step blueprint for everyday Americans who want to drive real civic change — including why she urges people to ditch cable news and online petitions in favor of genuine community engagement. Mallory also opens up about appearing on The Daily Show, taking calls from President Biden, and her vision for a "new American dream" built on success, safety, and sanity. An inspiring, honest, and laugh-out-loud conversation you won't want to miss.📘 Hate Won't Win by Mallory McMorrow — Amazon 🗳️ McMorrow for Michigan (campaign site) — mcmorrowformichigan.com 📺 Mallory McMorrow on The Daily Show with Desi Lydic 🏛️ Mallory McMorrow's viral 2022 Michigan Senate floor speech 🎭 Kyra Harris Bolden — Michigan Supreme Court Justice (recommended future podcast guest) 🌐 Emerge America — training program for Democratic women candidates20. Hacking a Path Through Alzheimer’s: Phyllis Ferrell on Early Detection and Brain Health
48:16||Season 2, Ep. 20What happens when your professional mission and your deepest personal loss become the same thing? Phyllis Barkman Ferrell — former Eli Lilly executive, global health architect, and relentless Alzheimer’s advocate — knows firsthand. Six months after taking over Lilly’s Alzheimer’s disease portfolio in 2011, her father was diagnosed. Eighteen months later, her father-in-law was too. That loss became the fuel for a 30-year career and, ultimately, the reason she walked away from a major drug launch to go fix a broken system.In this episode, Phyllis breaks down the difference between Alzheimer’s and dementia, explains why amyloid plaque builds up 10–20 years before symptoms appear, and shares the science-backed steps — sleep, diet, exercise, social connection — that can prevent up to 42% of dementias. She also talks about building the Davos Alzheimer’s Collaborative from a blank sheet of paper, launching the StartUp Health Alzheimer’s Moonshot, and why one drug will never be the silver bullet. Plus: does Wordle actually help your brain? She answers that too.In This EpisodeAlzheimer’s vs. dementia — and why getting the language right mattersThe 10–20 year preclinical window and the PET scan breakthrough that changed everythingWhy only 50% of people with Alzheimer’s ever get a diagnosisBuilding the Davos Alzheimer’s Collaborative across 80 sites in 19 countriesThe Alzheimer’s Moonshot: 50+ startups racing to solve the puzzle togetherThe 2024 Lancet Commission’s brain health protocol — and why sleep is the most underrated interventionJames Keach, Earth Wind & Fire, and the podcast about poisoners with cocktail recipesShow LinksPhyllis Barkman Ferrell on LinkedInDavos Alzheimer’s CollaborativeStartUp Health Alzheimer’s MoonshotAlzheimer’s Association — Find Your Local ChapterI’ll Be Me — Glenn Campbell Alzheimer’s Documentary19. The Hidden Health Tool You Already Have: A Deep Dive Into Breath Work With Charlie Baldwin
41:14||Season 2, Ep. 19What if the most powerful tool for your mental and physical health has been with you your entire life? In this episode, Aaron sits down with Charlie Baldwin, a certified breathing instructor with the Art of Living — a global wellness organization founded in 1981, now active in over 185 countries.During this episode, Charlie shares his remarkable journey from a college student battling depression and nearly dropping out, to a transformative breath work teacher at universities and retreat centers worldwide. Together, Aaron and Charlie explore the science behind SKY Breathing, how your breath serves as a biological lever for your emotions, and how to bring even the most skeptical people into the practice.Show Links:Art of Living Foundation - https://www.artofliving.org/ SKY Breathing Overview - https://www.artofliving.org/us-en/sky-breath-meditation Charlie Baldwin demonstrating "UJAI" breah - https://youtube.com/shorts/Jb4Bph9MX2018. The Cutting Edge of Cancer Care: Dr. Lorenzo Cohen on Biofield Research at MD Anderson
38:52||Season 2, Ep. 18What if the most powerful cancer-fighting tools aren't found in a pharmacy, but in your daily habits? In this episode, Aaron sits down with Dr. Lorenzo Cohen, a pioneer in integrative oncology who has spent nearly 30 years at MD Anderson Cancer Center blending conventional cancer care with evidence-based lifestyle interventions.Dr. Cohen introduces us to the "Mix of Six" — six lifestyle pillars that can meaningfully reduce cancer risk — and explains why how you sleep, eat, move, and connect may be just as important as any treatment protocol. It's a conversation that will genuinely change how you think about your health.Resources & Links:📖 Anticancer Living: Transform Your Life and Health with the Mix of Six — Get the book🌿 Alison Jefferies, wellness coach & co-author — Living Well with Alison🔬 Learn more about Biofield Therapy — Phenomena Healing📄 Peer-reviewed study on Biofield Therapy and cancer — Wiley Oncology Journal📰 Biofield Therapy slows pancreatic cancer progression — Business Wire Study Announcement🌳 EWG -- https://ewg.org 🛸 https://www.phenomena.com/🛸 https://www.phenomena.com/16. Justin Brooks, Founder of the CA Innocence Project: Fighting for the Innocent
38:50||Season 2, Ep. 16Aaron and Justin cover a remarkable amount of ground, from Justin's early days as a clinical teaching fellow at Georgetown (where he and Aaron first crossed paths) to his decision to quit a stable law professorship and launch the California Innocence Project in 1999. Justin explains what compelled him to visit a young woman on death row in Illinois who claimed innocence — and how that single visit changed the trajectory of his life.They dig into the Brian Banks case — the 17-year-old who took a plea deal for a crime he didn't commit — and how that story became a Hollywood film with Greg Kinnear playing Justin. The conversation turns to why media (movies, podcasts, docu-series) has been essential to shifting public understanding of wrongful conviction, and how the innocence movement has grown from a handful of organizations worldwide to 66 projects in the U.S. alone.Justin shares candidly about the emotional cost of this work — the wins that feel incredible and the losses that stack up — and the self-care practices that have kept him going: daily exercise, a lifelong vegetarian diet, HGTV, and a 270-year-old stone cottage in northern England.Show Links:Justin on Instagram and TikTok: @JustinOBrooksJustin's book website: https://youmightgotoprison.comCalifornia Innocence Project: https://californiainnocenceproject.orgLatin America innocence resource site: https://:innocente.orgNew book (pre-order on Amazon): Collateral Damage by Justin Brooks and Zach Brooks: https://www.amazon.com/Collateral-Damage-Sacrificing-Liberty-Criminal/dp/052041377615. Cooking Without Sight: MasterChef Winner Christine Ha on Resilience, Vision Loss and Finding Purpose
37:40||Season 2, Ep. 15Chef Christine Ha — MasterChef Season 3 winner, New York Times bestselling cookbook author, restaurateur, and disability advocate — joins Aaron Strout for a deeply moving and inspiring conversation. Christine shares how losing her mother at 14, gradually losing her sight to neuromyelitis optica, and competing on the world's biggest cooking stage all shaped the chef, author, and advocate she is today. From the kitchen of her Houston gastropub, the Blind Goat, to the halls of the United Nations, Christine's message is clear: resilience, purposeful living, and celebrating small victories are the keys to a fulfilling life.Killer Quotes:"I think [losing my vision] just really taught me the resilience of our human bodies and our minds if we really have a will — we will find a way to achieve whatever goals we have, regardless of whatever challenges that may come our way.""Learn to celebrate the small victories. When I lost my vision, I went from making an entire Thanksgiving meal to barely being able to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. But week by week, I kept at it — and eventually I realized how much progress I'd actually made.""People with various abilities or disabilities can live very purposeful, fulfilling lives and meet their goals and achieve their vision, so long as there's a network of support."Show Links:The Blind Goat Restaurant (Houston): https://www.theblindgoat.com Christine Ha on Instagram (@TheBlindCook): https://www.instagram.com/theblindcook Helen Keller International (donate via Christine's Instagram link): https://www.hki.org Easter Seals Southern California: https://www.easterseals.com/southerncal Kids Meals Houston: https://www.kidsmealsinc.org No Barriers USA: https://www.nobarriersusa.org Bonus — Queen Live at Live Aid (referenced by Aaron): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbvyNnw8GQo14. What Keeps You Up at Night: Luke Mickelson on Solving a Problem Most of Us Never See
50:00||Season 2, Ep. 14In this deeply moving episode, host Aaron Strout sits down with Luke Mickelson, founder of nonprofit "Sleep in Heavenly Peace" (SHP) — the organization behind the powerful mission: "No kid sleeps on the floor in our town."What started in Luke's Idaho garage after discovering local children sleeping on piles of clothes has grown into a global movement with over 400 chapters across the US and four countries, delivering hundreds of thousands of beds to children in need.Luke shares his journey from farm kid to purpose-driven leader, and his grounding philosophy: *humans helping humans. A true masterclass in service leadership — have tissues ready.🔗 Show Links:* Sleep in Heavenly Peace – https://www.shpbeds.org* Mike Rowe's (of "Dirty Jobs" fame) "Returning the Favor" episode featuring Luke and Sleep in Heavenly Peace – https://fb.watch/Gx7hUfR8wi/* SHP on CNN Heroes – https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/28/us/cnnheroes-luke-mickelson-sleep-in-heavenly-peace