The Lawfare Podcast: Patreon Edition

This week on Rational Security, co-hosts Quinta and Scott were joined by co-host emeritus Benjamin Wittes to talk over the week’s big national security news, including:“Stalled and Appalled.” Ukraine’s counteroffensive to try and reclaim Russia-held parts of eastern Ukraine appears to have stalled, triggering a degree of finger-pointing on both sides of the Atlantic—just as U.S. and European support for their military campaign appears to be waning. What does this mean for the next stage of this conflict?“Parting the Red Sea.” Since the start of the war in Gaza, U.S. and allied diplomatic and military presences have come under attack by Iran-backed proxies throughout the Middle East. Now the Iran-backed Houthi faction in Yemen is targeting commercial shipping in the Red Sea with purported Israeli ties. What’s motivating these actions? And how do they change the regional security picture?“One Day Soon, I’m Gonna Tell My Goons, About the Blassingame.” Former President Donald Trump suffered two big legal losses in cases relating to Jan. 6 this past week, as both the D.C. Circuit in the civil suit against him and the trial court in his criminal prosecution held that he was not immune for prosecution by virtue of being the president. What will these decisions mean moving forward on the civil and criminal fronts?For object lessons, Quinta shared an amazing development in the Menendez case. Scott pulled a musical hat-trick and endorsed the newish venue The Atlantis, the phenomenal Lydia Loveless (who he just saw there), and (since it is December) Ingrid Michaelson’s holiday album Songs for the Season—and specifically the sob-inducingly melancholy song, “Happy, Happy Christmas.” And Ben plugged the Romanian Madrigal Choir show he attended at the National Cathedral while also logrolling for the new (non-Lawfare) podcast feature he rolled out on his substack Dog Shirt Daily and related podcast “Read with Me,” which features readings of major filings and opinions in the Trump trials. Also, we are beginning preparations for our end-of-year listener-submitted episode! If you have a topic you want us to cover, a question you want us to answer, or an object lesson you want to share, send it along to us at rationalsecurity@lawfaremedia.org no later than December 18!

It's another edition of “Trump’s Trials and Tribulations,” recorded on Thursday before a live audience of Lawfare Material Supporters. Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes, Senior Editor Roger Parloff, and Legal Fellow Anna Bower to discuss a range of matters, from Judge Chutkan’s denial of Trump's motions to dismiss his D.C. criminal case, to Trump's filing seeking to stay the D.C. case in its entirety, the lack of movement in the D.C. Circuit from its gag order, and where the various 14th Amendment Section 3 suits seeking to ban Trump from the 2024 ballot stand around the country. They also dug into updates from Fulton County and talked about what happened in particular at the six-hour hearing on Dec. 1 that has gotten surprisingly little attention. This is a live conversation that happens online every Thursday at 4:00pm Eastern Time. If you would like to come join and ask a question, be sure to visit Lawfare’s Patreon account and become a Material Supporter.

From November 6, 2013: On October 25, 2013, the Hoover Institution held a day-long media colloquium out at Stanford University for a first-rate group of journalists focused on national security legal issues and the work of Hoover’s Jean Perkins Task Force on National Security and Law. The first session of the day, Ben’s talk on Speaking the Law, ran as episode of the podcast on Sunday. The second session, the subject of this episode, was a talk by Matt and Ken about autonomous weapons and the calls for a preemptive ban in international law on so-called "killer robots." The session has been edited both for length and because not all of the journalists consented to having their remarks made public.

Last week, former Secretary of State and National Security Adviser Henry Kissinger passed away. To assess his legacy, Jack Goldsmith sat down with Graham Allison, the Douglas Dillon Professor of Government at Harvard University. Allison knew Kissinger well. He first met Kissinger in 1965 when he was a student in Kissinger's class at Harvard. And Allison worked with Kissinger for decades, right up until the end of Kissinger's life, when he and Kissinger coauthored an essay published in October on arms control for artificial intelligence, perhaps Kissinger's last essay. Allison and Goldsmith discussed Kissinger's accomplishments as a statesman, his cast of mind and long intellectual productivity, his engagement with history as a guide to international diplomacy, and his particular brand of realism. They also discussed Kissinger's failures and mistakes and what Kissinger was most worried about at the end of his life.

World War I was a seminal event for American national security and foreign policy, as the United States deployed nearly two million soldiers and sailors to Europe and engaged in the most intense overseas combat in its history up to that point. Yet the development of modern American intelligence just before and during the war, and even the magnitude of the war itself, have been largely forgotten by the US public.David Priess spoke with historian and former intelligence officer Mark Stout, author of the new book World War I and the Foundations of American Intelligence, about early steps toward peacetime US military intelligence in the 1880s and 1890s, the importance of Arthur Wagner and his late 19th century textbook about information collection, the intelligence impact on and from the Spanish-American War and the Philippine insurgency, how the war in Europe spurred intelligence advances in the mid-1910s, German sabotage in the United States, how General John Pershing and the American Expeditionary Forces used intelligence in combat, the growth of domestic intelligence during the war, the scholarly group gathered by President Woodrow Wilson called "The Inquiry," and why World War I generally fails to resonate with Amercians today.Among the works mentioned in this episode:The book World War I and the Foundations of American Intelligence by Mark StoutThe book Classified: Secrecy and the State in Modern Britain by Christopher MoranThe movie Gone with the Wind (1939)The book Wasteland: The Great War and the Origins of Modern Horror by W. Scott PooleThe Chatter podcast episode The JFK Assassination and Conspiracy Culture with Gerald PosnerThe book Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy by John le CarréThe movie Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy (2011)Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Megan Nadolski and Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Watching the footage of the attack on the U.S. Capitol on the morning of Jan. 6, 2021, Bradley Onishi thought to himself, “If I hadn’t left evangelicalism, would I have been there?” In his book entitled, “Preparing for War: The Extremist History of White Christian Nationalism and What Comes Next,” Onishi offers a sobering historical account of the origins and development of White Christian nationalism in the United States and its offshoots. From the unique perspective of a former insider, Onishi explains how the decades-long campaign of White Christian nationalism in the United States culminated in the Jan. 6 attack. Lawfare Associate Editor Katherine Pompilio sat down with Onishi—a scholar of religion and co-host of the Straight White American Jesus Podcast—to discuss his personal experience as a former White Christian nationalist and how it informed his writing of the book. They also discussed culture wars and the myth of the Christian nation, the elections of Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan, Jan. 6 rioters and religious symbols at the riot, how Donald Trump fits into all of this, and more. 

A little over a month ago, President Biden issued a sweeping executive order on artificial intelligence (AI) covering a broad set of AI issues, such as privacy, transparency, the development of biological weapons, and many more. The order hands out expansive directives to several U.S. government agencies and private industry, which the Biden administration hopes will help the U.S. lead the globe in AI development in a safe and sustainable manner. Lawfare Research Fellow Matt Gluck sat down with Bill Wright, Global Head of Government Affairs at Elastic—a leading search company—to discuss, from the perspective of an industry insider, what the executive order means for tech companies that rely on AI and the relationship between tech companies and the U.S. government. Is collaboration among companies in the competitive AI space possible? Which aspects of the order could help smaller companies keep up? Will the order let companies dictate their processes for complying with the order’s broad objectives?

On Friday, two courts weighed in on the question of presidential immunity. First, Judge Chutkan of the DC District Court ruled that Trump is not immune from Special Counsel Jack Smith’s criminal prosecution for his conduct on Jan. 6. In the second, the DC Circuit Court ruled that Trump is not immune from a civil suit brought by members of Congress and Capitol Police officers, also relating to his conduct on Jan. 6.To talk through the decisions, Lawfare Executive Editor Natalie Orpett sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Quinta Jurecic and Roger Parloff along with Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes. They discussed the nuances of both opinions, how the analysis is consistent and how it is different, and what each case implies about the other—and what comes next.

Is the Fourth Amendment doing any work anymore? In a forthcoming article entitled “Government Purchases of Private Data,” Matthew Tokson, a professor at the University of Utah S.J. Quinney College of Law, details how, in recent years, federal and state agencies have begun to purchase location information and other consumer data, as government attorneys have mostly concluded that purchasing data is a valid way to bypass Fourth Amendment restrictions. Lawfare Senior Editor Stephanie Pell sat down with Matthew to discuss this article, where he attempts to bring this constitutional evasion to light. They talked about the two main arguments offered for why the purchase of private data does not violate the Fourth Amendment, his responses to these arguments, and the recommendations he makes to courts, legislators, and government agencies to address the Fourth Amendment and privacy concerns surrounding government purchases of private data.