The Graduates


Kat Gutierrez

Keywords: history of science, botany, Philippines, colonial, textiles

Andrew Saintsing: Hi, you’re tuned into 90.7 FM KALX Berkeley. I'm Andrew Saintsing, and this is The Graduates. Today I'm joined by Kat Gutierrez from the Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies. Welcome to the show, Kat.


Kat Gutierrez: Hi, good morning.

Saintsing: It's so great to have you here. So, I hear that you study the history of science, and we typically talk about science, so I thought it would be really interesting to explore science from a historical perspective.

Gutierrez: Yes, I do I look at the history of Philippine botany.

Saintsing: You study like how people understand this science?

Gutierrez: Yeah, I think that's a really easy and good way of putting it. I look at botany, specifically at the end of the Spanish colonial period. That's around the late 19th century up through the US colonial period, which is about through the mid 20th century. And so, as we probably know, the Philippines was colonized by Spain and the United States for quite a lot long time, and I'm interested in how colonial scientists especially understood plant life.

Saintsing: You're interested, in some capacity, in like how colonial people in particular were studying these sciences? Like as colonists? Was that coloring how they were explaining or understanding the flora of the area?

Gutierrez: Absolutely, and I think actually that starts to speak to about two levels of the project that I'm currently working on for my dissertation. The first is how colonial scientists arrived in the Philippines and what they made sense of when they were coming across new and obscure plant life that they had never seen before either in North America or in Europe. But, I'm also looking at how the varied actors were contributing to the science at the time. So, these weren't just colonial botanists. These were illustrators. These were collectors. These were field hands. Sometimes they were spouses. And so, by expanding the breadth of the people that we understand to be contributors to the science at the time, I think we have a fuller narrative of how people made sense of the Philippine plant world.

Saintsing: Yeah, that's so interesting. You know, we, I guess, always just think about the scientists who do things but there's always these people around. That's really interesting about the spouses. So, I guess scientists often brought their spouses along, and these people were also just collecting things? 

Gutierrez: Yeah, you know that's actually been one of the most exciting elements of my research so far. So, I was doing some research in Madrid one of the major archives that houses a lot of the institutional documents for Spanish botanists of the late 19th century, and I would find these records of widows who usually wrote to the state requesting pensions for their deceased husbands, and a lot of these husbands were collectors or land surveyors that were sent to the Philippines. Some of these women joined their husbands, and what we have record of is not only – you know, there's travel documents from Spain to the colony. Some of them painted. We actually have some surviving illustrations of plant life. Some of them establish life in the Philippines, and so, there are records of children who were born in the Philippines because these spouses had joined their partners, essentially in the field. And, I think that's been part of the exciting work because, even if you go into the American period, we have women who were the most avid collectors for Manila during the early 20th centuries, some collecting over 20,000 plant species for herbarium collections.

Saintsing: So, it was mostly men, I guess, who were the scientists, and the spouses were, tended to be their wives. Was it ever the other way around?

Gutierrez: Yeah, I would say that that tends to be what the record shows. Right. So, we see a lot of men who traveled with their wives. I would say that one of the more exciting case studies has been this collector named Mary Clemens. I'm not sure if you're familiar with her. She's from the United States, and she trained in botany in the US in the late 19th century, and she and her husband traveled to the Philippines together. He was an Episcopalian pastor for the US military, and they had this amazing and illustrious career in Philippine plant collecting that not only included the Philippines but other countries. And, what we now know is that he died in Southeast Asia, and, after he passed away, she still continued the work. And again, so it's Mary Clemens really who's known more for that collecting effort.

Saintsing: Right.

Gutierrez: And, I think she spent her final days in Australia still continuing to collect, and she was the one who I was referring to who has at least been estimated to have contributed 20,000 plant specimens to herbaria worldwide.

Saintsing: Wow. Wait. So, he was a pastor?

Gutierrez: Yeah.

Saintsing: Interesting. And, he was also really interested in the botany. How much does religion and science intersect in colonial collections?

Gutierrez: I think, through their case study, quite a bit. So, her husband, who was the pastor, actually assisted her in mounting and shipping materials. So, Mary was the one who's kind of going out in the field initiating the collections, identifying them in the field. He helped her sort of as a field hand, and if you look at the correspondence – and I've only touched some of it so far – religion is incredibly important to how both of them are seeing the world and making sense of plant life and what I think you know they would really term as God's creation. And, some biographers have noted that Mary especially had quite a love and an appreciation for a lot of the field hands that who had supported her in her work, and so, if you read the letters, there's quite an infusion of both spirituality, connection with the environment, and then of course connection with other people who are contributing to their collecting and worldwide.

Saintsing: That's really cool. So, you're studying a lot about how colonial scientists analyzed the plants when they first got there, but obviously there were people there who had been looking at the plants for a long time before. How much did pre-colonial science factor into what the colonial scientists were understanding about the Philippine environment?

Gutierrez: I would say quite a bit. I would say quite a bit, but it sort of depends on what angle that you're looking at. So far in Philippine history and history of science in the Philippines we know that medical botany, for instance in Materia medica were very well studied both by the United States and by Spain. This also sort of branched out into economic plans, right? Plans that had particular utility in the home or in fieldwork. But, what I'm interested in is not only that but a couple of things. The first is knowledge of plants that's being communicated in Tagalog which is one of the native languages in the Philippines. And so, currently we've sort of studied the history of science through English language, Spanish language sources. I'm interested in what's being communicated in what I think is really the colloquial language of Manila at the time. And, we have discovered, you know, newspaper articles that talk about plant life, you know, from gardening to the importance of a rose and sort of how its traveled from its provenance into the Philippines. And the second for me, and this is sort of been a side project that I've worked on with historian Pamela Smith at Columbia, is textiles. So, textiles at the turn of the century, we have to understand, were almost always built from plants, right? So, the technologies of textile production, certainly the colors that produced, that were produced from flora, and the fibers all came from local plant material. I actually think that this source material has been untapped typically in studies of botany in the Philippines for a lot of intellectual reasons, you know. I think that there's a particular idea of what textiles and weaving is and that's usually subsumed in anthropology and material culture, but if we start to take a step back and look at it for its science I think we start to learn a little bit more about local understandings of plant life that we hadn't before.

Saintsing: Interesting. So, what, what's the difference between studying textiles as a science versus studying it in anthropological context in terms of your work?

Gutierrez: Mm-hmm. I would also – you know, I'll definitely have to credit pamela for a lot of this sort of new thinking about textiles and craft. A few things: for instance, if we were to look at the kinetics right of how one produces a textile, I would say that we understand that it's a very embodied process, right? So, if you've ever sort of seen textile production, whether it's for the backstrap loom that goes around person who's producing cloth or at a foot loom for someone sort of arched over this contraption that's really producing threads that sort of interlock, we understand that this is a very embodied process that's working with natural materials to kind of rebuild something of utility, something of cultural import for me. I'm really interested of course in the plant life that goes into it, and so, I'm interested in how people are cultivating the plant material, transforming the plant material into dye and then using that on natural fibers that they're also creating. And so, for me that's also kind of a mirror way of understanding classification and how a dyer or a weaver might view plant life based on those classifications that might look different from you or me trained in perhaps plant systematics, okay, so what sorts of other classifications are people using and I guess this context.

Saintsing: Cool.

Gutierrez: Yeah, well, so I participated luckily in a great field study and research project in the northern Philippines in 2018, and we were being actually led by an anthropologist, and we were able to integrate with a community in the northern province known as Umbra. And what I discovered when I was working with some of the weavers was how they classified bamboos. So, there are species of bamboo all throughout the northern Philippines and, depending on the circumference, its density, and its length or how it was cut, particular tools could be constructed from the bamboo. The same thing was for particular types of wood, so they would call certain fabrics the names of the woods that they were using because that wood would help produce a particular pattern different from the wood of a different tree for instance. And, the same would be applied to woods used for looms, right? So, they were able to differentiate between the mahogany-built looms versus the ones with other more local trees, and I found that very fascinating. And, I found that weavers had an incredible knowledge of the plant life around them, and not only based on sort of how they would tactically construct looms and the textiles themselves, but again they would be able to understand how growing patterns would eventually affect what they could create.

Saintsing: Yeah. That's so interesting.

Gutierrez: Right?

Saintsing: I always, I'm always like so interested looking back in the history of science, right, at both how far we've come and like how much new knowledge we've acquired so quickly lately, but also when you really look back on it, how much people really knew back in the day before like even modern science started coming up. And, I guess that just speaks to, that's just a testament to human ingenuity that we were able to rapidly accumulate knowledge just without necessarily like sophisticated modern tools but just you know by observing the differences between materials.

Gutierrez: Absolutely, and you know I think – well I haven't approached a definitive answer around this, but – I think by observing modern textile weaving and dyeing I'm able to understand a little bit more about what's happening at the turn-of-the-century and why for instance disciplinary constraints sort of lump textile weaving and dyeing into the realms of ethnology or anthropology, and they never really find their way into science, right? They're kind of there maybe for agricultural purposes or for economic development in terms of local industry, but we don't really understand, or there is very little record in the colonial archives about why this could be considered something of a technological advancement or something that really reflects scientific engagement with plant life, and I think that's good, you know? I think it's key because it's starting to really show me a little bit more of the intellectual constraints that we, even we might have, right, when comes to something like craft.

Saintsing: Just a reminder that you’re tuned into The Graduates. I'm speaking with Kat Gutierrez from the Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies, and we were talking about her research on the history of botany in the Philippines. Okay so, as a historian you mostly look at written sources, right? Does it pretty much start and stop with you at the written word in terms of what you study?

Gutierrez: I hope not. How limiting the history will be, you know, if I don’t actually include other sources that aren't necessarily constrained by text. And so, I was mentioning that you know I look at Tagalog-written sources and your Spanish and English sources as well, but there is a trove of visual material on Philippine botany at the turn of the century that I can't not look at because these give insight into a lot of the local illustrators who were hired by colonial botanists to draw plant life. And so, there have been historians, Daniela Bleichmar is one of them who's looked at how, you know, visual sources, visual material could travel from the colony to other colonies, from the colony back to the metropole, from the metropole to other centers and sites of botanical study. And, without these visual sources I actually think that not a lot of Philippine material would have really been known of and so it gives us a little bit more credit in my reading to those illustrators who were very much so advancing Philippine botany in ways that perhaps wasn't as acknowledged at the end of the 19th century or in the early 20th century, but nowadays, when I think about how if I turn to a book on Philippine plans I'm probably looking for pictures first, right? A lot of us are and I think, you know, to not look at that would be a great mistake.

Saintsing: I guess I was thinking of illustrations as part of a, you know, text, right? That you would include illustrations with written words, and so, that would be part of some overall document that you would have though the illustrations and the text, right?

Gutierrez: For most. For most. At the same time there are a lot of illustrations that are sort of loose-leaf in people's archives that possibly went into final productions possibly or not. You know, they could have been practice sketches and I actually think these practice sketches are also important to look at because they kind of give to the process of how these illustrators, are thinking about, you know, plants that they're studying. And so, one particular illustrator that I look at, he has, you know, leaves and leaves of sketches, and if you compare those to the final form to what eventually gets published by him and various Spanish botanists, there's a great difference and I think that's gonna require a lot more intensive analysis because it might give me a better sense of again, like I said, how the process is working for them at this time.

Saintsing: Oh, that's really cool to think about. You can actually see like editor notes on his illustrations or something like that?

Gutierrez: It's pretty great. I think there's some notes where you can see he drew something and then it'll say underneath like, actually I don't know what this is. This can't really be identified. This is sort of a scrap, right? Or, you know, what I've probably observed more frequently are, you know, plants that then get changed in angle perhaps to ease viewing or understanding of that plant material, whether it's, you know, kind of in its growth process. And so, that's been really just exciting to see as well because I think that's also required, that requires a certain amount of artistic skill yeah that is reflective of what's happening in Manila especially at the end of the 19th century.

Saintsing: Is there a lot of difference between artistic skill in these drawings? Can you see like, oh this guy is pretty good, and this guy is not so bad, not so good? Or is everybody pretty good because it's what they're – 

Gutierrez: What can I say about that? What we do know is that at the end of the 19th century there was a primary arts school that had been established by the Spanish, and most of the well decorated artists were coming out of the school. And so, stylistically there is a similarity across all of them. One artist in particular – and he's the one I look at – his name is Regino Garcia. He becomes the lead illustrator for many publications, but you can sort of see that, among his peer group, they all kind of approach light and shadow and plants in a similar way. The more exciting ones for me though are, like I said, the ones that are produced by spouses, and I'm not too sure yet where their training was. My guess is in the peninsula, and their approach is again slightly different, right?

Saintsing: Do you find that the different artists always focus on different parts of plants, or is there, is everyone kind of understanding the important parts of the plant in the same way?

Gutierrez: Mm-hmm. I think that's a really good question because that speaks to what we're valuing, right? At the time in terms of what structures of the plant are most important to communicate not only to local audiences but certainly to an international audience I would say it's all about the same, and we're seeing kind of a lot of the same things. So, seeds, right? Leaves, leaf structures, the flower, the fruit, possibly stems. And, for the more kind of illustrious publications, we'll see these in a kind of a very organized manner, right? I'm thinking back to like the Garcia laminates that, you know, label each particular part of a specimen. It's a meticulous detail. Again, these are very different from the sketches that are much more rough, but this is pretty consistent across the Spanish publications. By the time we hit the US colonial period, things get a little bit different. It becomes a little bit more text heavy so far in my reading and the emphasis on illustration isn't quite as intense. However, what we do have, see, are more photographs in the archive, and so, these photographs of trees especially become part and parcel of how the United States is communicating the richness of Philippine plant life.

Saintsing: It's interesting. When was – so, when was the transition between Spanish and US colonial power?

Gutierrez: In the Philippines, 1898.

Saintsing: Okay, and so, the Spanish just – well, photography was around during Spanish colonial rule, right?

Gutierrez: It was. 

Saintsing: It just wasn't used as much?

Gutierrez: I would say not. Yeah. It's been something that I've really been searching for pretty aggressively, and even with you know a lot of the newspaper publications, there's real reliance on lithographs, sketches, but I have yet to find – and someone please contact me if you do find this – any Spanish era photographs of plant life. A lot of it is hand-based.

Saintsing: Do you know at the same time as Spanish colonial rule in the Philippines were there botanical photographs taken elsewhere in the world?

Gutierrez: That's a great question. In the Philippines?

Saintsing: Oh, just in general. Like were people taking pictures of plant life at the time, or was that sort of a development that occurred toward closer to the turn of the century?

Gutierrez: You know, I haven't noticed anything from any other archive that sort of looked at it in the same way. Something's happening at the beginning of the 20th century that sort of points to a bigger reliance on photographic technology, and I think that's a really good question because it's something that I should be looking into a little bit more especially if I'm thinking about the standards of international botany and how those might be changing at the turn of the century.

Saintsing: There was no color. So, people are coloring in on top of the photographs?

Gutierrez: Yes, okay so some of the photographs that are coming out of the United States at the time definitely look they're being colored by hand. The ones that I've come across specifically from the New York Botanical Garden and their rich archives on the Philippines have been black and white prints.

Saintsing: Okay, so I'm really interested to know how you came to want to study the history of botany in the Philippines.

Gutierrez: That’s a great question, Andrew. I only laugh, you know, not because of, you know, anything kind of silly about the story, but it really does feel like it's been a lifelong process, you know? I can't tell you that any kind of step has ever been away from this particular trajectory. I actually think that it's made plenty of sense in my life, and so, I used to work in public health, and so, I come out of Los Angeles. I was born and raised, and I was working in public health for a very long time. And, I first got started in a community that's in a community clinic that serves Southeast Asian immigrants, and so, I came to Berkeley as an undergrad, and I was interested in studying public health and Southeast Asian Studies.

Saintsing: So, you were working in public health before you were an undergrad?

Gutierrez: I did, yes. I started in high school, and Berkeley seemed like the best place to combine two fields that I really loved, and as soon as I graduated, I aggressively pursued a career in public health. I was working in adolescent health for some time, but I always knew that I loved Southeast Asian Studies. I had always had an affinity for the region, and I really think a lot of it was because I was working with immigrant populations at such a young age, and at some point, you know, a career in public health I wanted to approach a lot of the problems that I was observing through historical lens, and I wanted to develop a project on the history of public health in the Philippines during the US colonial period. And so, it made sense for me to reapply to the institution that, you know, had really raised that level of curiosity, so I came back to the Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies to see. From there it was in my first semester of my program that I took a class with Laura Nader, and she's in anthropology, and she encouraged me to look at medicinal plants. And, in the Philippines medicinal plants play a very big role in public health. In the Philippines oftentimes medicinal plants are the most affordable and accessible form of palliative care that people can access, and you know, I started uncovering more information about medicinal plant research and it brought me to my dad.

Saintsing: Cool.

Gutierrez: And so, my dad was – is a botanist on Philippine plants. he's a specialist of the Dipterocarpaceae. Now, what we know is the Philippine mahogany, but in the 1970s and 80s he published on the medica. And so, the seminar paper that I was writing for Laura's class turned into a bit of a study of what my dad was doing in the 1970s during the Ferdinand Marcos dictatorship. And, it was only through all of that kind of intensive research into his work, old newspaper clippings, oral history with him that I realized that there was this lengthier more vibrant history to botany in the Philippines that I wanted to track and that hadn't been written, and it pushed me kind of into the colonial period to understand sort of the intellectual beginnings of modern botany as we know it in the Philippines and how its practiced, and so, in many ways I actually think this project has been a life in the making. Not only for mine, but for my dad as well.

Saintsing: So, have you uh been working closely with your dad?

Gutierrez: I have, and I only laugh because I'm – gosh, we've had such a colorful time. So, my father moved back to the Philippines at the end of 2014. He also is a PhD holder. He wrote his dissertation on the Philippine Dipterocarpaceae and he decided at the ripe age of 83, 82 to go back to the Philippines to publish his dissertation.

Saintsing: Wait, so he didn't get his PhD in the Philippines?

Gutierrez: So, he got his PhD in the Philippines, but he left because of the dictatorship, or in part because of the dictatorship. And so, he left the project behind or the unpublished manuscript of his dissertation there, and he was inspired to clean it up and to push it out and publish, and so, I think in part we're both inspiring one another as we finish our projects. And so, when I went to the Philippines in 2017-2018 to conduct my archival research he was with me for 90% of it.


Gutierrez: I remember giving a conference presentation on the island of Samar in the central Philippines. It was a history conference, and my dad joined me for the presentation, and I said something like, you know, this is a word to all of you young history students. Please, you know, bring your parent with you for all of your research. It is both beautiful and exhausting, and, you know, if I think back and I'm sort of just even ruffling through the memories of what we've had together, I really wouldn't change it or exchange any of it you know for that time, and a lot of it was taxing. you know? I'm, I was the sole caregiver for an aging parent. At the same time, there are, you know, intellectual insights that he's provided me that I know I wouldn't have gotten without his presence in the field, 

Saintsing: Right. That's really – he, he's turning 86 this year in August, and he was out in the field?

Gutierrez: Oh, he joined me for that textile research. That was in the North. He came to every conference presentation that I had, both with Philippine systematists and Philippine historians. I think there was only one time where we were walking through a botanical garden on the South in the province of Laguna in the Philippines where I think maybe like 500 feet in, he just said, you know what child I'm just gonna stay here. I just – like pulls out a cigar, bit of a character, you know? I'm thankful. I'm thankful that he's ambulatory. I'm thankful that he's, you know, just got all the faculties in place to still have all of this curiosity about the world, and I think that really serves as an inspiration not only for me in life but how I approach this work. You know, to see a man who's carried such passion and to have left it behind for so long and pick it back up again once more shows me that, you know, the dissertation ain't no big thing. It's soup.

Saintsing: It's really cool that you get to spend so much time like on-site, right where you're studying. Is that common mostly for South and Southeast Asian Studies departments that you like actually go out into the field and get to collect written sources from wherever, whatever country you're studying?

Gutierrez: Absolutely, I definitely can speak for our department, South and Southeast Asian Studies, where we're encouraged. You know, it's actually required that we go to the country that we're studying or the field sites that we're studying. I have a colleague who studies old reliquaries from Indonesia, and she would spend weeks at archaeological digs, you know, across Indonesia. I personally commit to doing, you know, field studies and collecting plants and learning how to collect herbarium-grade specimens because I think it inspires a different approach to the work. And so, if I am also you know sweating beads, you know, to find a particular material and, you know, getting rashes from maybe stepping into a thorny bush, I'm recognizing not only kind of the manual labor that's going into what was maybe happening at the turn-of-the-century, but also appreciating kind of the sensorial that comes along with them. I think there's a lot to be gained even as we write these narratives of the past from participating in what could have been you know these collectors or these illustrators actions. Then it's certainly, I would say, a taste for, you know, textile. I participated in a field school where we actually did it ourselves, and we were trained by master weavers and dyers. Once again because I think we were able to gain a different kind of insight into the work.

Saintsing: What's the process like, trying to track down documents? I mean, you know, are you, do you just like know kind of where to go? Or, do you actually have to, I don't know, like think about where this missing document might be, you know?

Gutierrez: Right. Oh, it's just like reminded me of just how long that process really takes. I mean you're really just hunting, you know? You're really looking for things, and that's I think my process has been like prior to leaving for Manila and Madrid, which are my main research sites for the last two years. I had conducted some preliminary research to know that, okay well, maybe in this library in Manila and maybe in this library in Madrid there are documents that are going to be pertinent to what I need to find. And, those are very important for, you know, applying for the funding to get me to these places to begin with, but once in place, you know, and I've been told this by my late adviser, Jeffrey Hadler. He just said you have to be really flexible because you'll be surprised by what you end up wanting to find, what, what, what pulls you, you know, and what you discover actually. Maybe it wasn't there to begin with, and so, first and foremost – and I still carry that advice with me today – is just you recognize the flexibility because, I think, if you come in with a plan and you only stick to the plan, you become constrained by it and what you discover. Even in archival research the data can be in various places and places that you wouldn't suspect to begin with.

Saintsing: Well it looks like we're running out of time on this interview. Typically at the end of the interview we have a minute for the guests to make any other larger point they'd like to make about their field or social issues, so if you'd like to take a minute to address the audience on any particular issue of relevance…

Gutierrez: Gosh, you know, I guess, I guess the first thing that's coming to mind, and as I'm thinking about my dad or thinking about my research when I was in the Philippines, I could see that no history is too small, and so, when I always in the Philippines I would really encourage scientists to keep their archives. And so, Manila in particular has seen a lot of war and destruction, and voluminous archives were destroyed pretty much from the end of the 19th century up through World War II. It's been really a work of not only repatriating material but rebuilding archives that were lost. And so, when I see scientists now I say, please just keep your letters, keep, keep whatever messages you have, keep your books, keep your libraries. Give them away because you never know, you know, what interested and curious soul might come around and want to write that story. We have, you know, troves of information on the history of science coming out of Europe and North America. We're only now building I think better histories of science in the, you know, former colonies in Southeast Asia, in Latin America, in Africa. And so, part of the work, I think, now I've been talking to you, Andrew, about sort of encouraging people to remember that those stories, you know, the very human element behind STEM. You have a very human element behind research. It can make for one hell of a history.

Saintsing: It's a great message. Yeah. Thanks so much for being on the show, Kat. I've been speaking today with Kat Gutierrez from the Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies. She's been talking about the history of botany in the Philippines and her path to her current PhD program. Again, thanks so much.

Gutierrez: Thank you, thanks for having me.

Saintsing: Tune in in two weeks for the next episode of The Graduates.

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Katie Keliiaa

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And so he essentially got ahold of some prisoners. He actually had prisoners of war. I think there were Comanche and a couple of other tribes. And so he sort of did this thing. That was an experiment. And he thought, well, what if I, you know, cut their hair, put them in military uniforms and sort of put them to work. So that's the first example of like the Outing experience among native people. And it starts with these prisoners, right? He essentially sort of does this experiment and starts putting these prisoners of war to work at white homes. He gives them a small wage. He's also kind of giving them like, um, remedial English, and I think math and stuff like that. And so he's like, this is the best way it totally works. Look at these Indians, look how transformed they are. He essentially is able to get support from the federal government to create the first ever Indian boarding school in Carlisle, Pennsylvania from that experiment, Outing is something that continues throughout Carlisle and begins to spread as boarding schools spread across the nation. And essentially you had students working on campus and then later you "outed" them. You sent them out from their communities and had them work in my homes. It's literally sort of this process that continues for decades along after it's created,Saintsing:They were sent far away from their tribal lands.Keliiaa:Yeah. So the, the kids at Carlisle and there's actually some adults, as well as Carlisle, they are put to work. It's a kind of local farms in the area. Some are also sent to New York and other places as well. So the idea is that they're at school during the school year, they're laboring on campus and during winter breaks and summer breaks, they're being sent out. So even though, you know, you'd think you and I get to go home for the holidays, right? These kids don't get to really do that, and the idea is actually to separate them from their parents to separate them from tribalism, from their language, from their culture, and a good way to do that is to contract quite literally contract children to work in these homes. And that same policy happened and continued here onto the West coast.Saintsing:So, you study outing programs that sent native American women to specifically this area, the Bay Area, right?Keliiaa:Yes. The Bay Area. Yeah. So as I mentioned, you know, boarding schools pop up all throughout the nation and they all operate a form of outing program again, on those breaks, sending children out. And so what's kind of unique about the Bay Area Outing program. What I research, it was one thing it started down the street on Pence Prince street here in Berkeley. So it's literally, it's got its roots right here in this sort of Berkeley East Bay area. Right. And what it does is it runs independently from any specific boarding school. And so it starts funneling girls from Western based boarding schools. So a lot of the girls first came from Stewart Indian school in Carson city, Nevada. A lot of them came from Sherman. Um, girls also came from Chemawa, which is another boarding school in, in Oregon. It, it was this whole process of funneling girls specifically to work as living housemates in the area.Saintsing:These were Native Americans from like all different tribes.Keliiaa:So, at Stewart, the way Stewart started, for example, in Carson City, it's a, it's a boarding school that's specifically sort of geared towards Great Basin Indians in that area. So it's a lot of Paiute students, Washoe students, as well as Shoshone students. But over time, a lot of these schools began to expand past the sort of regional population of native people. And so they start bringing in tribes from various parts of the country. So a lot of the girls coming here while at first they might be, you know, Washoe and Paiute. They start coming from up North, they're Yurok, they’re Hoopa. Um, they're coming from down South, they’re Bishop Paiute, for example. And so you get this kind of like Pan Indian community. That's starting to come through here in the Bay area. And it's very small at first, but it begins to grow and begins to include more tribes. And it is a very kind of inner tribal experience long before Indian relocation, which is what most people look at it kind of Indian urbanization it's really happening decades before thatSaintsing:Native American women were like establishing communities in the, in the city, like where they, uh, there was a, I don't know, maybe a church they went to or like a community center. Yeah.Keliiaa:That's, that's an excellent question. So a lot of the women coming into the Bay area at first, there's really no sort of inner tribal community. They're super isolated. Remember they live in the homes that they work in. So they're working in Berkeley and Oakland some in Walnut Creek, a couple in San Francisco, et cetera. Some even in Alameda, for example, and they're living in the home. So they're totally kind of isolated from any kind of community they're literally just living in the home, kind of like how you saw maybe in Roma. I don't know if you saw that movie, but it's yeah, well now you'll, you'll see it with new eyes, but you're living in the home and you're, you know, a part of this family, if you will. But of course you're never a member of the family you're working for, right. You're taking care of their kids, you know, you're doing their dry cleaning, their laundry. And we have to remember at this period of time, we don't have washers and dryers like we do, right? Like this is really hard work cause it's, you know, the twenties to the forties. And so a lot of these girls don't have a sense of community. And what I found was in these early years, the program starts officially in 1918 and in the twenties, girls are just running away, left and right. They don't want to be here and it's not a place that they find familiar or homelike or whatever. A lot of them are driven out to the Bay area to experience what is the Bay Area, right? Like beautiful sort of bright lights and cities and trolley cars and all kinds of cool things that you wouldn't experience, for example, in rural Nevada. But at the same time, it comes at a cost. And so they're lonely. They're constantly surveilled by their employers as well as the Outing Matron. Who's the person who assigns them to these homes. And so in the early years, girls definitely run away. I would say, it's not super successful.Saintsing:It's not, the program isn't successful or...Keliiaa:In retaining them in that sense, right.Saintsing:Oh, where did they run to?Keliiaa:Um, a lot of them ran back home. So there's a couple of things that I do in my work. And a lot of them focus on newspaper articles and it's always talking about how the call of the wild was strong, you know, for these young Paiute girls who are running back on barefoot, it's ridiculous. In reality, you know, his girls were smart. They had a couple, they had some money at their disposal and they probably just took a train and went back home cause they were done with it.Keliiaa:Right.Saintsing:Right.Keliiaa:But girls are coming every single summer. And a lot of them actually aren't staying and going. They aren't going back to their boarding schools. They actually enroll here in the Bay area to do public school and like Oakland high, for example, um, some, I think also go to Alameda high. So it's this very kind of interesting place where you have these supposed opportunities that you wouldn't otherwise have like public schooling that is more rigorous than boarding school instruction. But again, it comes at a cost. So a lot of the girls run away, but towards the, I think you want to say the mid-twenties, maybe around 1926, the outing matron is kind of realizing that she needs to kind of create a space for these girls to be social. And so there's a couple of organizations that pop up. There's a Yurok women's club and there's also something called the Four Winds Club. And these actually both operate out of the Oakland YWC so it no longer exists there, but the original location is right on Webster. And it was a great sort of space for the girls to meet and hang out. And they would often do this on Thursdays when they have their day off. So they started kind of organizing, it started out as this sort of institution, if you will. That was meant to kind of control Indian girls. So they had a safe place to go again. The Matron helped create it, but eventually over time, the native women in the outing program began to kind of create their own space. And so they have things like we put on Halloween parties and they invite like local Native kids to come at this Halloween party. They have meetings, you know, and they, um, organize together and create, you know, Christmas parties and social organizations. So over time we start to see that once those became a mainstay, like the Four Winds Clubs and other sort of similar organizations, there actually appears to be less runaways. And it appears that native girls are able to tap into a system. And it's not just this isolated sort of community that it was way in the beginning.Speaker 3:Right. Okay. So this actually kind of helped establish, well, is there, uh, going back to that time kind of still like a thriving Native American community?Keliiaa:Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So the, the women who come together and organize really and become, you know, the, the organizing members of the Four Winds Club, they also are in relationships. So a lot of their partners are coming to the Bay area for the purposes of world war II, actually. So some other partners are at mare Island some later come to the area and sort of are part of the Alameda Naval air station as well. So what happens particularly in the forties is that we see that Native women are coming to the four winds club, but it's also becoming like a social, almost dating space, if you will. So a lot of these women are meeting other Indian guys and some of them actually are students here at UC Berkeley. So there's Native men at UC Berkeley who are going to the Four Winds Club, and they're meeting up with, you know, native women and it's this space that, um, really becomes super intertribal and, um, you know, very Pan Indian, right. But it's also a space where it's not just women that are kind of driving the organization. And so men become involved too. And so when they do these Christmas parties, or even sometimes Thanksgiving parties, they're bringing their regalia, their sort of exchanging dances and songs, and they're kind of, um, you know, creating this community that really wasn't there before. Right. Um, inter-tribal anyway from people from all over the nation are coming. And so what you start to see is that these, these, you know, native people in the early 20th century are organizing actually well before and creating community well before Indian relocation, which is when a lot of people look at, Oh, this is how Indians got to the Bay area. So what I find is that the four winds club has a lot of us organizing and, um, sort of social spaces that later delve into what's called the Intertribal Friendship House in Oakland. And so, to me, there's definitely this kind of genealogy where this organizing in the twenties and the thirties and the forties becomes something very solid in the form of something called the Intertribal Friendship House in Oakland. And so to this day, IFH as it's called, really, I think, lends its kind of, uh, communities start with part of these, you know, members coming from the Four Winds Club. Um, so to this day, yes, there's a ton of native people in the Bay area. It was a relocation spots. So in the fifties, the federal government tried another assimilation policy. They're great at that. And they started another assimilation policy that brought native people from reservations, with the incentive that, you know, we'll pay for your fare to get here. We'll give you a little bit of training. And again, the whole goal was assimilation. It was like, if we can just get these tribal people away from the city and into, or away from the reservation into the city, they'll be able to assimilate. So, San Francisco, Oakland, uh, even San Jose, Los Angeles, I mean, I think we even have Chicago. I mean all over the nation native people are being sent to these areas and then it becomes an even bigger, more diverse Pan Indian community with sort of new experiences and new communities, sports leagues, socials, powwows, all kinds of stuff come from that period of time. But for me, my argument is like, well, it was kind of starting before that though. So that's where, to me the sort of history of that Bay Area Indiaan community, a Pan Indian inter-tribal ones starts to gather. And it's in these early years stemming from the outing program,Saintsing:Going back a little bit, you mentioned that, um, some of the women that were involved in the social clubs were meeting men in the area and some of these men were attending Berkeley. I was just wondering like how, um, you know, what, how did it end up that, you know, some Native Americans would be sent to these boarding schools and others were able to, you know, attend the colleges.Keliiaa:Yes, that's an excellent question. Um, I think it really varies depending on the education they received in their respective boarding schools. So I'm very proud to say that one of the men who attended Berkeley was actually my uncle, my uncle Bert, my grandfather's brother. So, and I actually, um, he came to Cal, um, on the GI bill and he was, as I understand it, very intelligent. I mean he Phi beta Kappa, like he was also in the boxing club. Like he was just, you know, one of those students that just really have it down, but he also came from Stewart Indian school in Carson city. So you'd think how did he get here? Um, I know that for a period of time, um, he attended Alameda High for a little bit, maybe that helped in his education, but somehow, he was able to get in, I think obviously the GI bill help, but clearly, he was highly intelligent. So, he got into Cal and yeah, he was, um, he did really well while here at UC Berkeley. I like to sometimes imagine what it'd be like to be on campus back then, you know, back in the day. But yes, he was also going to the Four Winds Club, you know, he was meeting people there and socializing. And if I understand it correctly, there are a couple of native women who also attended Berkeley and in order to pay for their tuition and fees and all that kind of stuff, they were domestic workers in the area. I have to go back. I have too many files in my mind, but if I'm not mistaken, there's at least one or two native women who were enrolled in Berkeley. I'm sort of later on in the program and who were doing domestic sort of outing work in the forties. So yeah,Saintsing:This is just a reminder that you're tuned into The Graduates. I'm speaking with KatieKeliiaafrom the Department of Ethnic Studies. Okay. So your research is really interesting, but also I want to know more about how you do it. Um, so you’re, would you call yourself a historian? Okay. So you're looking a lot at like written documents.Keliiaa:Yes. Archives, archives and more arc. So it's a, it's a lot of work and I think you have to be a complete nerd for it to really like it, you know, I think that's most, it's probably grad school and academia in a nutshell, but um, for me, uh, I really enjoy going to archives. Um, it can be really painstaking because you're just there with boxes of things and you have to decipher, you know, what they are. But through this smart program, I got to work with an undergraduate student and we were able to tackle my largest archive together, which was really cool. It was a summer. And for weeks on end, we were driving and bartering and whatever system of getting to the national archives in San Bruno, which is right next to SFO. And so there, um, we just literally collected all the boxes and slowly but surely over weeks on end digitized all the material from my archive. So, it was literally just kind of sitting there and flipping and turning and putting in tourney and then having lunch and then flipping and turning and doing it all over again. Right. But during our breaks, you know, we were having conversations. I'm really fortunate that I got to, um, experience the archive with, um, with her, with Marina because, you know, I feel like undergraduate students bring a new sort of lens to your work. They can help you see things that maybe you didn't see that were right there. And she was coming into the work sort of, um, fascinated with the stories and sort of the characters that really were in this archive. And so we'd sit over lunch and talk about discussions and ultimately those informed themes that became the chapters and it was this whole kind of arc, you know, this process through which I'm tackling the materials and seeing them in front of you doing a lot of scanning, but also taking lots of notes and thinking about, okay, this is not what I expected to see, or this is totally what I expected to see. So for example, in the archive, we came across deaths, women who passed away while in the Outing program and who are still buried to this day in Oakland, if you can believe it because the government refused to send their bodies back home, which is atrocious and disgusting,Saintsing:Even though there was like requests.Keliiaa:Yeah. Yeah. So, um, things like that were chilling and you see that kind of violence in the archive. And so I think a lot of it has been learning how to process that, right. And for me as a Native woman whose grandmother was in the Bay area, you know, doing outing, um, I feel, you know, it's something that I can't get away from. So I feel implicated in a way sometimes in this research, um, and in the files, I mean, archive. Finding, mention of my great grandmother, my great uncle, like in these materials, it's also kind of odd, right? And it puts me in a different position than maybe someone who didn't have that history. So for me, you know, the scanning and then looking at things and later qualitative data analysis, all that is, um, you know, the method, right. But you also have to think about the fact that if your history is quite literally embedded in this, then it's takes longer to process that I think, and to step away from it and try and be as objective as possible. Right. It's a, it's a very interesting experience. Maybe one day I'll write about it, but otherwise it's been very rewarding because for me to be able to find the letters and the moments where Native women are like frustrating the outing program, or they're refusing to work at these homes or where they're demanding better pay, you know, all those kinds of moments are me like able to locate agency in an otherwise like very entrenched, you know, labor program. It's very much set on sort of like putting Native women into this particular box of how they're supposed to be and how they're supposed to behave and what's available to them, you know? So, um, it is it's difficult, but I do genuinely enjoy.Saintsing:Right. And then you, so you have your, your family lived this history and I guess there are lots of people in the area who lived this history. Do you ever also, um, collect oral histories, and things like that.Keliiaa:Yeah, that's an excellent question. That was completely the goal from the start. And I've found that it was very difficult to find women who are still alive actually from this period of time. Um, I can interview, you know, my dad or a number of other elders now who can tell me about, you know, what their mothers experienced more or less. Um, but I really do wish that I had more of that firsthand account. And there's a couple of, sort of like oral histories out there that sort of touch on it just a little bit, but there's nothing sort of direct that says, okay, what was your experience like in the Bay area Outing program? So, um, I would have loved to have more of those perspectives. I did interview my great aunt, my, um, Aunt Esther. And I interviewed her just to talk a little bit about the adding program. She did remember one of the matrons and she's like, Oh, I remember that was the lady who would get you jobs, you know? So, so there, and she talked a little bit about kind of her experience, but I will say that, you know, as much as I can look at this, you know, decades later, almost a hundred years later in some cases, and be able to step back and think about it as you know, somewhat objectively. Right. You know, we have to remember that these are Native women working in private homes that are largely unmonitored. We don't know what happened in those places, just as we don't fully know what happened in a lot of boarding schools. So not everybody even wants to open up about these things and not to their, you know, their great niece or, you know, some relative of theirs. So, um, I think it just goes to show that there's some things that people aren't necessarily ready to talk about. And so that's where I really focus on the archive to sort of give me a little bit more information about what was going on, what they were thinking. And even in instances where I can't necessarily find a letter that says, you know, I'm fed up or whatever, even though I have a ton of those, um, I, I focus on Native woman's actions and the ways that they're able to say and express themselves and just kind of say, like, I'm done with this, you know, and I'm going back home and I left, you know, so, um, I really try and highlight those moments and I think it's important for me. Um, cause it gives me kind of hope and, and otherwise kind of bleak, you know, period of time, um, that these native women are still, you know, creating potential impossibility and another wise kind of unknown world.Saintsing:Yeah. So that's like mostly in letters they're writing to their family members.Keliiaa:Yes. There's some letters to family members. Um, and usually those are letters that are actually unmailed, which means the matron took them and never mailed them and refuse to like let out what they're trying to say.Saintsing:It's so interesting that they would keep it though. Like, I don’t know: if they had that power, they would just destroy it.Keliiaa:Yeah. You, you totally fix it. So I'm sure there's probably destroyed things I'm sure. But, um, you know, these were the things that got through and they held on to them. Um, but otherwise a lot of them yes are letters from concerned parents from sisters, from the women themselves. Um, and, and also, I, you know, you really begin to see how the Bay Area Outing program really tapped into kind of social service agencies in the area. So for example, um, they got pretty tight with like Catholic charities, as well as various children homes, um, and adoption agencies, even in San Francisco and local, um, sort of social service agencies as well. So these Native women are just really being managed by not just the outing program, but all these sort of local institutions well that are, you know, that believe they know what's best for them. You know, you know, this'll be the best thing for you if you, you know, um, foster your child out or adopt them out, or, you know, if you take this route instead of this one, so it's kind of, it's kind of fascinating to step into that period of time and see what it was like. Um, and heartbreaking at times too, you know, but ultimately I try and find those promising moments, those moments where Native women were able to kind of push back a little bit in ways that they could. Right.Saintsing:Yeah. That's like the, that's like a joy of history, right. Like finding that there's like unexpected documents. Uh, so have you always known that you were going to be a historian?Keliiaa:That's a great question. Not at all. I felt like I stumbled into it, you know? Um, so for example, um, I did do my undergrad at Cal, so I did need American Studies and Ethnic Studies. And I actually remember being totally bored with our guy and just be like, ah, I don't really get it. Also, this handwriting is really difficult to read. Um, but I got into, um, when I got to my master's program at, um, UCLA in American Indian studies, I think I started to fall in love with research and I didn't, I hadn't realized that all the things that I had been doing in undergrad was in fact research to some degree, you know, maybe it wasn't in an archive or like a formal setting or like a one on one interview, but there were things that I was doing. And so that, that was research. And so, at UCLA, I got to kind of hone my skills and I got to do interviews with folks who relocated to, um, the LA area. So people who were on relocation and talk to me about, you know, the churches that develop the Native churches, the native community centers and all this kind of stuff about their experiences coming to LA. And one, in fact who came to the Bay Area briefly to Berkeley specifically, and I learned there that I really do like research. And so at UCLA, my master's thesis was on Washoe language vitalization. That's one of the tribes that I am, which is right around the Lake Tahoe area, that's the center of the Washoe universe. And so for me, it was wonderful because I got to research kind of like my community, but it meant that I got to go to like language classes and interview people and talk about, you know, Washoe language ideologies and what it means to community members and allowed me to think about what it means to myself as well. And so, I fell in love with it. And when I came to Cal for my PhD, I thought I'm just going to continue doing Washoe language research. But then I was like, well, there's always the thing about grandma was like a housekeeper. And I kind of wonder like more about that. And so that question of like what happened to my grandmother and what happened to other women and why were all the women in my family who went to boarding school? Why were they all in domestic work? Like that kind of was always in the back of my mind. And so, um, when I got, uh, back to Cal, I was like, I think I want to research this a little bit. And so in between, um, undergrad and grad school, I did go to San Bruno and I was just picking up files of my, my grandfather's file. My grandmother's file, um, from Stewart Indian school. Cause their files are there too, which is kind of nuts. You know, it's just like what this is just sitting in here. And this is a part of history. And I think I pulled my uncle Burt's file as well, the one who went to UC Berkeley And just looking at those files, I saw how there is this very gendered sort of discussion around the kids that my grandmother, what, the way that the rhetoric they use around my grandmother was that she was like bad or something or that she was, you know, um, didn't always obey and just, just the way that they wanted to control native women was very apparent. And just looking at that one file and then seeing my grandfather's file and Uncle Bert, who again, was stellar and super intelligent was like, Oh, there was a letter and uncle bird's file. That was literally from some lady who had visited Stewart. I don't know why she did, but she's like, there was this young man who gave us a tour on campus and he was just wonderful. And he, is he going places I want to know what's going on with that young Indian boy. So there was clearly this notion that, you know, these, these boys have potential and they can do great things, you know? And so I think that gendered rhetoric was in my mind as well as I thought more about the outing program. And so once I got to delve into the files, it was kind of like I was hit, like I was struck and I was like, this is what I want to do. So while I still do language work, for example, I really was like, Oh, I guess I am a historian. And you know, it was just kind of this aha moment where I realized this is what I was really passionate about. And even when I did do my Washoe language research and my work on that, it was all about contextualizing, well, why is it that the Washoe language is endangered? You know, why is it that children weren't allowed to speak it at Stewart Indian school? You know? So there's always, I think I'm always been like a family historian, if you will. I love genealogy and all of that. And I think it just finally dawned on me. It took me a while to get there, but it dawned on me in grad school that, you know, this is what I'm really passionate about. So I truly love it. And, um, do you feel like I stumbled upon,Saintsing:Well, it looks like we're running out of time for our interview. This has been a lot of fun. Is there anything you'd like any thoughts you'd like to leave the audience with?Keliiaa:So I think, I think for me, I went to a really great talk this weekend and it got me thinking about a couple of things about the work I do and, and all of that for a lot of people, even folks in, you know, NAS, the Native American Studies or history, the sort of concept of outing is like, wait, what's that program Outing? Huh? What? It's, it's new to a lot of folks. So if you listened in today and learn something and find it compelling that our nation had a full on, you know, education system geared towards assimilating native children for decades and still has those institutions open, then I kind of want to put a little bit of pressure on you to take a Native American studies class. I would love it if, you know, you could, if you're at all fascinated by this, or just want to learn more about our nation's very complex history than I think I would love for you to take a Native American studies class. I would love for you to read a book that to me really speaks to my experiences and urban Indian woman growing up in the East Bay. It's called "There, There" by Tommy Orange. It's freaking amazing and touches on a lot of the things that we talked about today, actually. And I would also encourage you to support the local indigenous communities in your area. And so here in Berkeley, you know, obviously it's the Ohlone people, right? And so there's this thing called a Shummi tax. Have you heard of it? Andrew? The Shuumi tax is it's an opportunity for you to donate directly to the Ohlone nation here in the East Bay. And it's a great, it's a great way to support sort of native owned initiatives, um, and really to kind of give back to this land that was taken away from a community, um, that is still here to this day alone. People are still here, people forget that, right. And then I guess, because we're on the Ohlone subject, right? You guys definitely have to check out the Ohlone cafe it's, um, right here on Bancroft, it's in the back of like the University Press Books space. They have amazing food. Vince and Lewis are just like doing it up and I love it. And it's super good. And these are just things that you can do if you're interested in supporting, um, you know, the native community and learning a little bit more about this history and the communities in this area that aren't always shared about or talked about or discuss. So that's your to do list. I hope you enjoy it. And thank you so much for having me. It's really been a pleasure.Saintsing:It's been so great having you here. I was speaking today with KatieKeliiaa. Tune in in two weeks for the next episode of The Graduates.

Kelly Ziemer

Keywords: self-transcendence, self-love, positive emotions, therapy, intervention, depressionAndrew Saintsing: Hi, you’re tuned into 90.7 FM KALX Berkeley. I'm AndrewSaintsing, and this is The Graduates, the interview talk show where we speak to UC Berkeley graduate students about their work here on campus and around the world. Today I'm joined by KellyZiemerfrom the School of Social Welfare. Welcome to the show, Kelly.Kelly Ziemer: Oh, thanks for having me, Andrew.Saintsing: It's so great to have you here.Ziemer: Thank you. Fun to geek out about research always.Saintsing: Nice, that's what we're all about on this show.Ziemer: Yes.Saintsing: So, you study positive emotions, right?Ziemer: Yes, I think specifically positive emotions that really intrigued me – there are subsets of positive emotions, and they are called self-transcendent emotions, and it's this idea that when you - I'll give you an example in a second – but the idea that when you experience a particular emotion it actually like takes you out of yourself with the ability to connect you to other people.Saintsing: Okay, yeah.Ziemer: So, you transcend yourself essentially, right? With the purpose of connecting you with others, so like creating social connections.Saintsing: So, like what kind of emotion would that be?Ziemer: Yeah, so ones that are talked about frequently are emotion of like gratitude for example. Awe is one of my favorite emotions and actually what really started my interest in positive emotions. So, Dacher Keltner here in Psychology studies awe. The research has been I think maybe 10 years now, 10 to 15 years on, and so, rather in its infancy still. But, awe is really this experience of when you are presented with this like mind-blowing stimulus that you can’t really even comprehend, and a lot of people, they realize they're in awe when they're like, wow. Like wow is like this vocal reaction, right? So, a lot of our research comes out of nature, so like the Grand Canyon for example, or like beauty, music, and so, it's this idea that you then feel relatively small in this like greater vastness, but there's something kind of bigger than you out there, right?Saintsing: Yes.Ziemer: And, awe could be negative, too, right? It could be, it could be like a tornado. It could be a person, that you're like, how did that happen? How did they get into power? I’m in Berkeley, so I think I'm safe to say that here.Saintsing: Yeah, I think you’re safe to say that anywhere. Well, maybe not. So, so there's this like speechlessness about awe that's like really yeah. Is that kind of fundamental to the self-transcendence, or…Ziemer: No, not specifically more self-transcendence is like you are really kind of taken out of yourself so you're focusing on yourself less. It's kind of like this – sometime, I mean oftentimes self-transcendence is spoken around like a spiritual religious context, but it really is this idea that we're connecting with someone else so in like in cooperation or caretaking. Like compassion for example is a self-transcendent emotion. Some emotion researchers would say that these are.Saintsing: So, it's self-transcendent because you're –Ziemer: Go aheadSaintsing: With awe, you're connecting with someone else because you both have this like awestruck reaction with something, and you can relate more because it seems like you're reacting to some – I mean aside from maybe when you're in awe of a person in particular – but it seems like you're in awe of some spectacular vision, or…Ziemer: Yes, and you could be by yourself, right?Saintsing: Yeah.Ziemer: You could be by yourself in the Grand Canyon, but because you kind of recognize that you're the smaller sense of self, that you, that there's something greater than then you out there, that it then leads you – and I think perhaps and maybe I'm even overstating here, but I don't know if they fully understand the mechanisms of why it leads to social connection, but just they call it in research literature they call it pro-social, so the ability to like be in awe allows you to be more altruistic, more generous, to want to help out other people because you realize that you're not alone essentially. But, there is a bigger thing out there than you, this like collective value.Saintsing: Oh, yeah. That's really interesting is that that kind of, you know, thinking about religion, right? Where you have – I think all religions but I guess I'm not sure – it would have this belief in God would generally inspire awe in someone believed in that. And so, is that kind of the basis of religion having this community like tapping into this community building sense of awe?Ziemer: Yeah, yeah, definitely. The origins of awe – I couldn't – when scholars write about awe they oftentimes reference, like, reverence to God. It's kind of mind-blowing concept, and you feel like there's something greater than you out there, so to speak. But, then you're coming together as a community, yeah, but around this belief,Saintsing: Right. So, there's more emotions than just awe that would through self-transcendence allow this community-building?Ziemer: Yeah, yeah, so oftentimes folks also speak about gratitude that way. They speak about self-compassion. Now mind you there's a lot of disagreement amongst the emotional world, so I don't even want to get into like the semantics. What I think is important to share, though, most specifically to my interests is, I think, some would say that love is also this self-transcendent trait. So, my own research interests over the past few years have really evolved into this idea of self-love and it's been an interesting journey for sure. As I started talking about self-love with folks over the past, I don't know, eight months or so from a research perspective because there's such a gradient, a spectrum so to speak of how people see self-love. So, if I go back to the self-transcendent nature, how I see self-love is self-love really has this ability to take us out of ourselves to then connect to others so we're focusing on ourselves like filling up our own love tank so to speak with the ability to then show up for others more and to connect more because if I'm feeling really good in myself and I'm taking care of myself that means I have more bandwidth to show up for other people as opposed to if my love tank is empty if my self-love is low then I'm doing things perhaps with expectations of receiving in return. When that's not happening, I'm feeling resentful and all that is very like negative low vibration feeling within ourselves, and ultimately, it's not the type of connection that we're searching for, right? To me self-love – and I'll say that if I can to give you a definition of self-love – one of the folks I've seen written about it the most, who wrote about the most is a psychologist and philosopher Erich Fromm, and he wrote a book called The Art of Loving, I believe. It was like in the five different types of love, I believe. It's like it's a hundred-page book, and it's really easy to read, and it talks about like five different types of love, like a love for God, a love from your parents. It talks about like a brotherly love – and that’s more like a friendship kind of feeling – but he also talks about this love for self, and it's this idea of caring for, respecting of yourself and your actions in the way that you're going about your life, and it's this stagnant – for me, I think it really is a stagnant way of being, so when there are adversities and when we have to be resilient, right, self-love is so important, but even when things are going great, right, like self-love is still a constant thing, and it's, I think, it's actually tied to other emotions that when we are in a state of self-love we actually experience calm and joy, and we're able to be more aware for these other opportunities to opt in to connection, right?Saintsing: Yeah.Ziemer: But I think – if I can just say – I think there's a myth I'd really like to bust actually about self-love, which is I think oftentimes there is this, there's this idea that emerged I think in the 80s maybe, or the 90s – I'm blanking on my timeframe right now – came out of the self-help movement which is, which was to say that like before, before you can love anyone else or anyone can really love you that you have to love yourself first, right? So, which for me I find problematic in a lot of ways. I feel like it doesn't really encapsulate the full story. I think that when we are really loving ourselves, sure I think perhaps we're choosing better partners or choosing better relationships that are healing and wonderful for us, right? But, I think – and I see this in this self-love movement right now – that kind of happens in pop culture that puts such an onus or a burden on people to really like, there's almost a perfectionism tendency of, like, I need to get to self-love. Otherwise I'm not good enough, and yeah, and this idea of like not being good enough, that's truly not self-love anyway, right? It really is a self-accepting piece, and so, I think the second part of this, also this myth I want to bust, is that, you know, we are wired for social connection, right? There are researchers, and Brené Brown has talked about this. Matthew Lieberman talks about this, and like an actual brain part of our brain literally is like wired to connect, and so, if I go back to this idea of self-love that, when we are opting into relationships and connection with people, that it can the reciprocal nature can be so healing within ourselves that we don't have to first achieve this like unachievable self-love before we can get into relationships with other people, okay? So, did I explain myself okay there?Saintsing: Yeah, you, so you're saying that self-love has this requirement that you accept yourself as you are, right? Which I guess is true of any sort of love, right?Ziemer: Yeah.Saintsing: Whether it’s directed inward or outward, right, there's this acceptance to it.Ziemer: Lovely, yeah.Saintsing: And so, you're saying that people tend to view self-love as something that they earn from themselves.Ziemer: Yeah, yeah, I think that's a great. Right. There's this like earning quality, and I think that's really well said. That it's like, to earn implies I have to do, to do, to obtain, obtain, obtain as opposed to like self-love just is because I exist, because you exist right here right now, right? And, that's my like mindfulness piece kind of tapping in there a little bit, but it just is.Saintsing: Yeah.Ziemer: It's, it's been interesting when I talk to – so my own research interest about like what am I actually studying for my PhD, because I'm a social worker, I'm also very much interested in like interventions like what can we do alongside our clients, alongside our community. What can we do in tandem with them to kind of get them this outcome that they're looking for. So, perhaps it's like feeling better about themselves if they're experiencing depression for example, right?Saintsing: Right.Ziemer: And, with self-love I started thinking about, is there a self-love intervention that would be really interesting to try out and study in some way from this like scientifically rigorous procedure for a scientific research method, right? And, when I started talking to people about, there's a common one that is spoken about in self-help, and I've also found it prevalent in addiction communities in like rehab, for example, where you look at yourself in the mirror you make, you literally make eye contact with yourself in the mirror, and you say something positive about yourself. So, I prefer that it's not statements related to like your physical appearance because I do think that it could take like a narcissistic trend, but we're really thinking about like a self-affirming statement, like I'm a good friend or even – I think and really I'm such a fan of this is – really just telling yourself that you love yourself. So, saying like I love you in the mirror while you're making eye contact with yourself. To me, to love, to love somebody else is to say like, I see you, and so self-love, you're really like, okay I see you, you know? Like, you're not that bad. Like, you're actually pretty great, and I will tell you that when I've talked to so many people about this, adolescents, I've spoken to clients of mine who are coming to see me wanting to feel better from depression, I've spoken to scholars about this, and so many people, I get two reactions. One is like absolute repulsion about absolutely not. I will not look at myself in the mirror. Like, this is, why would I ever do that, and two, I think going back to this idea that you were talking about. It's almost like confusion about well like why would I even think about myself. Why would I love myself as like this other entity, but I'm so focused on, you know, loving everybody else. That really to love is to love others, right? Like in scholarly research, we talk about one of the definitions of love is like being a trusted caregiver to others. I mean that's a very amended definition, but love is always this other-oriented emotion, and so, self-love, it's like, like why would I, why would I even do that.Saintsing: It's kind of like awe in some senses. In awe you sort of see something spectacular that makes you see how small you are or how much more there is.Ziemer: Yeah.Saintsing: And, in this self-love you have to see yourself as just another person instead of like where love is flowing from, right? But, self-love kind of like makes you realize you're not like the center of the universe or something. That you're, that you're just another person, and that like, that, that makes you more able, as you said in the self-transcendence, to connect with other people, I guess.Ziemer: I think this is actually why I feel so strongly about self-love is because I think this exact idea that you're talking about is folks who are experiencing depression or addiction, for example right? So, I'm actually, I'm funded. My dissertation is funded through the NIAAA, which is alcohol abuse and I work specifically with the funder here in the Bay Area that alcohol research group. So, oftentimes when we're experiencing addiction or depression we become so tunnel vision in our own mind about what's wrong with ourselves, how things aren't working for me and when we're in depression and addiction, often social isolation is happening it's very difficult to connect to others. And so, I'm such a believer that self-love could have the potential, and this is where I'm curious, right? Like, so from, you know, I'm hearing like my mentors and my advisors’ thoughts in my head right now about, you know, sometimes in the scientific world it can almost be a negative to be a believer, right? That, I think like self-love is a super power. But, I really need to employ my like scientifically rigorous, you know, unbiased view so to speak. Let's be curious about this. Could self-love actually be a superpower? As opposed to like approaching this self-love as a superpower, right? So, I should – let me reel it back for a second to say that, however, yes I do feel like, coming back to this point of awe, that, that self-love definitely, I would hypothesize, leads to feelings of awe because of this ability to connect us to other people, and that it gets us out of our own head. I think my greater vision for my research is to think like how can we employ self-love. It's free. It’s accessible, which I like, right, because a lot of these other therapies, cognitive behavioral therapy. Although I'm a believer, you see there's an access issue. If you go to a private practitioner in New York City, it's $200. I think San Francisco, it's 150, 200. So, my greater vision really would be for people to be able to really continue to cultivate this self-love within themselves.Saintsing: More specifically, what, what would you say your research for your PhD actually entails?Ziemer: Yeah, so yeah, thanks to that questions. I think self-love first. I was just kind of thinking of self-love, I think of, is this like umbrella term, this idea that if self-love is an umbrella and the prongs. There are many different prongs. So, to me it's this idea of like self-compassion, which is like when we're judging ourselves, criticizing ourselves, we’re able to accept ourselves, you know, amidst that. Self-care, which is like the respecting, doing things, really acting caring towards ourselves. This self-esteem idea, right, that we feel competent about ourselves. So, so the reason that I say this kind of umbrella term is because there's little research out there right now that that actually includes self-love, certainly how I know it to be true in these in therapeutic communities, for example. So, I'm so fascinated by, I'll say, phenomena of self-love in popular science in like the Psychology Today blogs, on social media. Like, if you go to Instagram and you type in #selflove, you get 32 million posts on Instagram. Google, you Google self-love, you get three billion returns. So, something is happening out there. What is it? So, I think what the, to me, the intriguing pieces. So, before I can go ahead and develop an intervention, right, even though I really want to jump to that phase, we know that a PhD that you have to take little bits by bits, right? That is actually talking about a career-long pursuit. So, it really, my own research really is conceptualizing this idea of self-love in these lay theory views. So, when I say lay theory I don't mean like scholars who have already written about self-love. I mean people who are on Instagram, and they're posting about self-love, so right now I'm in the process of thinking about perhaps analyzing Instagram posts to see how people, what sort of images people are posting when they're doing #selflove, and specifically within the context of like addiction and sobriety and recovery and that, so where these two worlds of like self-love and addiction intersects and how are people and these lay communities, you know, these therapists, everyday people, how are they talking about self-love? I'm really curious to kind of dig through that because I see, I do see some posts that could be it seen as narcissism, right? Right? I see posts that are very much moving away from this like self-care realm. So, so self-care really is rooted in this like black feminist queer theory, Audrey Lorde. This idea that like you're taking care of yourself so that you can show up for the collective, and this really activist mentality to now this transition of like #selfcareday Starbucks ad with your Frappuccino, whatever. On the beach, #selfcare, right? This is like commoditization, right, of self-care, and people there's you know, so there's, there's like #selfcare, #selflove, but what are we really talking about here? And, I'm so curious to kind of capture some of that, to also include therapists’ voices, people in recovery to kind of see like, what, what is this idea of, of self-love to them?Saintsing: Okay, so you draw on psychology, sociology, lots of different research techniques.Ziemer: Yeah, behavioral health.Saintsing: Yeah, so would you say that's generally true? People who are getting PhDs in the School of Social Welfare, that this is really interdisciplinary?Ziemer: Yeah, what a lovely question. Yes, thank you for saying that. This is why I love social work so much by the way. I really love the social work profession because I do feel like you know in this applied profession we really are always working in these interdisciplinary environments, right? If you're like a clinician working in a hospital you're working with doctors and nurses and psychiatrists for example, right?Saintsing: Right.Ziemer: And so, I think the beauty of this PhD at Berkeley in the Social Welfare Department has so much been about the freedom to connect with other professors and other departments. It's, so in public health for example I've connected with some professors there or some psychology whether it's emotions research or like adolescent development psychopathology for example. So, and I have, yeah, I have you know lovely people in my cohort who are bridging the gap with like anthropology, criminology, for example, so yeah, education. It's really, it's cool.Saintsing: And, you knew that you wanted to be a social worker right out of college?Ziemer: I took a very interesting path. I think I always knew, like in high school, I always was intrigued by the psychology profession, and yeah, I was, I was thought, you know, I'm so drawn to like authenticity and people's lives. Like, what's really happening, you know? I always was drawn to that, but when I was in college, I went to the University of Wisconsin, and they had a great business school, and so, I got a business degree, and I actually, my family, I come from, you know, a long line of people who are in the business world. My dad had been in sales for so long. My brother’s in sales now. My mom was, you know, this is like badass. I don't know if I'm allowed to say that. Badass in the corporate world. So, it was always kind of an influence for me, and I did, I was a consultant, an IT consultant, but I realized, like, yeah, I need to, I felt like there was something, my soul was dying. I really wanted to pursue something that I was so excited and curious about, so yeah, about eight years ago I got my Masters in Social Work. I started my MSW program in New York City. That coincided too with some things that were happening in my family, and it just felt like the right time to like leave the corporate world and dive into the Social Work arena.Saintsing: And then, you, you got your masters, and then you worked a little while as a social worker, right?Ziemer: Yeah, so I I did my MSW. It’s a two-year program, and then I was working in New York City for three years at an after school, like a high school Support Program. It was an after-school program, and it was, I mean, I learned so much. It was incredible. I have such love. It's, the program is to reach youth and it's a working at a public high school in Brooklyn, and I think there, maybe, I don't know, our team was maybe ten people or something, and I have such love to this day for these people that I worked with. I mean the environment was so fun. Like, you – we were, we were working with teenagers, teenagers who didn't have a lot of resources at their disposal. I mean this is like a New York City public-funded high school. It's what, the school's we were working with were like C grades, so the way that New York City rates their schools like ABC, so we were a C school, and that means people that I worked with, the strategies they were using were so creative to get these young people what they needed while also providing such a safe space for these young people to learn about themselves. And so, I was actually, I was doing therapy with kids who are high-risk, so who were at risk for suicide, who were just really having a hard time academically or at home and whatnot, but it was such a fun environment. I mean people were so authentic, and I mean, I don't know your experience with young people, but young people, they can sense when you BS. And so, you really have no other choice but to show up authentically, right? And it was such a gift really to work there.Saintsing: So, that was a great experience, and what I guess drove you… I – most people in social work, or if you're a professional, I guess, you mostly just need the masters, and then, you could do the work. What drove you onward to the doctorate?Ziemer: Yeah, yeah, so, so I think there were two things. So, one was I would run, every Monday afternoon, I'd run a girl's group. So, like 16-, 17-year-olds. They would come, and we would talk about all the things. Whatever they wanted to talk about, and I was finding a lot of the girls were expressing such anger, and this anger of just like what was just happening in life but then you know the microcosm of like the school environment and Facebook and people calling each other out and you know subliminal subs that were being thrown on Facebook for example, that would then transfer to the school day the next day. And, there would be fights, and girls would get suspended, and so, when I started talking to them about anger and what anger did for them and getting to fight, it really, getting into a fight is a release, right? Like, your adrenaline’s so high and you punch someone out or you do something like, you feel better but it's instantaneous because any of these long-term consequences of getting suspended, your parents finding out, what not, right? Right, so I'd say to them like, yeah what are strategies? How can I – literally I was like what are some strategies that we can use in order to kind of sort through all the different feelings that anger brings? Because ultimately anger is powerlessness, like we get angry when we feel powerless, and so, I started investigating mindfulness. Mindfulness was really just becoming a thing. This was like 2014. At least that was when I first started hearing about it, and so, I would try to understand like, what is this mindfulness? How do I use it? So, mindfulness really is, a definition from Jon Kabat-Zinn in the simplest form that I like, is this idea of non-judgmentally noticing, so like noticing that I got really pissed when someone posted something on Facebook about me that may not be true and like then taking the breath in the pause before I respond, before I respond something nasty to someone on Facebook or want to punch them out the next day for example, right? When you're talking to adolescents, this pause is very difficult because you're also talking about like an age in development where you have impulsivity, and like they're trying to figure out who they are? So, I started diving into this mindfulness. I thought like this could really work, but I was so, mindfulness research was so new at the time. I think it really hit its peak around like 2016 in terms of like the amount of journals are published on it like exponentially increased. So, I knew that, how mindfulness is being talked about in terms of the population, I was working with, so people who were coming from primarily like black and brown communities, lower socioeconomic having toxic stress, mindfulness felt very like white, waspy, affluent. Part one. Part two was I couldn't figure out what are these mindfulness techniques and how can we actually apply them to adolescence. So, I am getting interested in that and started reading all that I could and figured I really wanted to work on interventions for adolescents that were geared around mindfulness to these specific populations I talked about where I felt like there was such a lack of evidence at that point for these groups, so that was part one. Part two: around the same time, I read an op-ed piece in The New York Times written by Dr. Keltner here in psychology, and it was, what is – something like, What is the Emotion of Awe, and I thought that sounds like, what is awe? And, how should I get to know this person? Who is this person? Which then started, for me, like a flurry of googling UC Berkeley, and I knew I wasn't going to be do PhD in Psych, but I found a professor here, Valerie Shapiro, who's my advisor and has been so lovely navigating this PhD world with me. She's a prevention and implementation science researcher here in School of Social Welfare, and she had a study examining social emotional learning programs here in elementary schools in California, so like teaching little kids about empathy for example. So, I thought, oh that's like emotion, and it has to do with like kids and in schools. Like, even though my interests aren't completely aligned, let me reach out to her and see if I could work with her. So, that's kind of how I came to study. My two main areas really have been mindfulness and then positive emotions, specifically now self-love but in this greater context of you know these social problems, like social isolation, depression, addiction and yeah.Saintsing: So, unfortunately, it's been a lot of fun, but we're coming up towards our time limit. Usually at the end of the interview we'll take a minute to offer guests a chance to address the audience about anything that they'd like to talk about. Oftentimes, people talk about like social issues or some things specific to their research.Ziemer: I think, well one thing I want to say for sure is that I think I just want to do a shout out of gratitude as I've been really developing this idea of self-love, I have been working with an undergrad in the Social Welfare Department, Joyce, who's really has helped me kind of start thinking about all this like self-care and self-compassion and where all these terms kind of intersect and cataloging these different Instagram posts to figure out like, yeah, what, what really is self-love and how people are talking about it. So, I wanted to do a shout out to her, and then, I think, you know, lastly, I guess I would say that I think for me I think it's such an important point to hit home is that for me self-love really isn't a selfishness, but it really is, and it's not this like me-focused thing, but it really is in this idea of continuing to like connect and show up as our authentic selves with others, so I think it has some serious healing power behind it. So, we'll see. Yeah, more will be revealed.Saintsing: We all look forward to the results of your research. Thank you so much. Today I've been speaking with KellyZiemerfrom the School of Social Welfare. We've been speaking about her research on positive emotions and the potential therapeutic benefits of self-love. Thank you so much for being on the show, Kelly.Ziemer: Oh, thank you for having me. This is lovely.Saintsing: Tune in in two weeks for the next episode of The Graduates.

Sara ElShafie

Keywords: climate change, global change biology, reptiles, science communication, narrativeAndrew Saintsing: Hi, you're tuned into 90.7 FM KALX Berkeley. I'm AndrewSaintsing, and this is The Graduates, the interview talk show where we speak to UC Berkeley graduate students about their work here on campus and around the world. Today I'm joined by SaraElShafiefrom the Department of Integrative Biology. Welcome to the show, Sara.Sara ElShafie: Thanks for having me.Saintsing: It's so great to have you here. So, Sarah, you're a paleontologist. Is that correct?ElShafie: Yes, I'm a paleontologist. I always introduce myself as a global change biologist, which just means that I study how climate change and environmental change impact life over time, and paleontology is part of it.Saintsing: Right. So, would you say you're first and foremost a global change biologist?ElShafie: Yeah, just because I don't only work on fossils. I also look at stuff that's around today in order to understand how climate change and stuff impacted life in the past and also what that tells us about where we're headed now and in the future.Saintsing: Okay, cool. So, you're looking at like our current climate change?ElShafie: Yes.Saintsing: Yeah, but also, so the climate has changed a lot in the past, you'd say.ElShafie: Yes, and, and there have been really dramatic events of climate change before, some of which kind of mirror what's going on today, so I look at how those past climate change events impacted life that lived millions of years ago in order to try to better understand what we might expect from climate change today and how it will impact animals that are currently around and also people.Saintsing: What were kind of the outcomes of past climate changes? Is it looking bad for us?ElShafie: Well, in terms of like how climate change now is going to affect society, yeah there are a lot of concerning ramifications that we're already seeing. In terms of how it's affected life in the past, it has all kinds of effects. It can affect where things can live. It can affect what they eat or what's available for them to eat. It can affect how big they get. So, I kind of look at all of those factors in a big picture.Saintsing: You look at all animals, all plants, all organisms? Or, are you looking at specific things?ElShafie: Specifically, I focus on reptiles because reptiles are especially susceptible to changes in climate and changes in their environment because they can't generate their own body heat metabolically the way you and I canSaintsing: Right.ElShafie: Most of them can't and I look at lizards and, and crocodiles and their relatives specifically because they're really abundant in the fossil record, and they have a lot in common with lizards and crocodiles that are around today, so I can use the lizards and crocodiles that are around today to understand the ones that are in the fossil record.Saintsing: Okay, and so, you are looking at how their bodies change over time basically? You're looking at how big the fossils are at certain periods compared to other periods, before and after climate change and how big they are compared to today?ElShafie: Yeah, pretty much body size is the main metric that I use, the main kind of factor that is influenced by climate change because I can use the partial skeletons that I find of lizards and crocodiles in the fossil record to figure out how big they were in the past at any given point before, during, or after a major climate change event. And, I can use lizards and crocodiles that are around today to try to estimate how big they were in the past using only a piece of a skull or a piece of a limb, for example, because it's actually very rare to find whole skeletons in the fossil record of these things.Saintsing: Right. That must be really frustrating.ElShafie: Yeah, well, it also means that I get to I have an excuse to study lots of stuff that's around today in order to understand the fossils, so it gives me a more holistic research experience which I enjoy.Saintsing: So, do you actually get to study living animals? Or, do you mostly look at the bones of the living animals?ElShafie: I do. I study living animals, the living lizards and crocodilians, to understand their body proportions and how I can estimate like the whole length of the animal from just one element, like one piece of the skull or the jaw or the arm bone or something and also to understand how the animals live today and is there any relationship between their morphology, how they look, how their bones look, and what part of a habitat they might live in or what they might be eating or what their physiology might be like.Saintsing: Okay.ElShafie: So yeah studying the living animals is really important for understanding the fossil animals.Saintsing: Right, and so you study specifically reptiles and crocodiles? So you say you studying global change across time, but is there specific period you're interested in, or are you just comparing all the different periods?ElShafie: Yeah, so specifically I look at a period of time, geologic time called the Paleogene which was from about 66 million years ago to about 23-ish million years ago. So, this is right after dinosaurs went extinct up until about 23 million years ago, at which point we had ice at the poles again. We actually didn't have ice at the poles earlier right after the dinosaurs went extinct, and so, during that whole timespan, climate change was happening. The world started off pretty warm, and then it got super-hot relatively quickly right around fifty-six million years ago when there is this incident called the Paleocene-Eocene thermal maximum. So, within a relatively short span of time, a few hundred thousand years or so, the world got really, really hot really fast. Like it increased five degrees Celsius or so, and that's actually even hotter than the warming that we've experienced just in the last century or two, but the rate was actually not even quite as fast as what we're experiencing now, so it is a really powerful analogous event to look at and to better understand what we can expect with the rapid climate change that we're experiencing today. So, it got super, super-hot and around that time the world looked very, very different. Like, there was no ice at the poles at all and the interior of North America actually looked like a jungle if you can picture Utah which is now a desert looking like the Amazon. That's how different it was, which is really crazy to think about. So, to find fossils of crocodiles and these huge lizards and like the first primates and crazy horses and all kinds of stuff in the deserts of Utah and Wyoming and Colorado, and, and it seems it's all from a jungle that looked more like what South America looks like today, which is really awesome, and then over time it kind of dried out and got more arid and more grassy after that.Saintsing: Thinking about what I've grown up thinking about, you know, the extinction of dinosaurs, right? You get this picture in your head that the asteroid hits and then things get really cold.ElShafie: Mm-hmm.Saintsing: There was this drop in temperature that led to the dinosaur extinction still?ElShafie: Yeah, I think it got cold for a while. Right after the asteroid hit event it like, you know, blocked out a lot of sunlight and stuff, but then after that, you know, about 10 million years or so or not even that long. Then the world had largely recovered, but it also looked very different.Saintsing: So, it was an overall pretty warm climate?ElShafie: Yeah, it's – the earth has gone through a lot of changes over millions of years, and it's cool to look at those changes on a timescale of millions of years rather than just, you know, a few hundred years or even thousand years because, since climate is changing so rapidly today, and it's, it's different than anything that humans have experienced in human history. We really have no analog for it in our own history, so looking at much older events in the past and the rate that that happened and the changes that happened and at what pace they happened helps us try to anticipate what we can expect in the future.Saintsing: Right, so what brought about – why did the ice appear again at the poles?ElShafie: At that point Antarctica became isolated, and it was isolated by a current that still flows now around Antarctica. I think it's called the circumpolar current or something, but it keeps, it basically keeps Antarctica refrigerated and that's part of what contributed to it.Saintsing: Just having Antarctica in the place that it's in was enough to give us the climate we have today?ElShafie: Well, yeah. Cuz it's almost like having two giant freezers at each pole of the globe so to speak, and, that you know, they don't exist in isolation either. The ocean currents travel all over the world. They pass by the Arctic or the Antarctic and they bring cold water and that affects the like nutrients and upwelling in other parts of the world including the California coast, and it, you know, it affects how climate and temperature play out over the entire Earth. So, yeah, it's all connected.Saintsing: Yeah, I guess we're dealing with how connected we are right now, right?ElShafie: Mm-hmm. Exactly.Saintsing: So as a climate change scientist – or a global change scientist but you, you know, you're really interested in climate change, I guess. A lot of your work is focused on informing the public on climate change and about science in general. I know you've done a lot of work on improving science communication as a student here, right? Or, at least studying it to understand how it can be improved. So, yeah, can you tell us a little bit more about the work you're doing on that front?ElShafie: Absolutely, yeah, science communication and outreach has always been a big passion of mine and that really started in college, and by the time I got into my master's degree, I realized that I not only wanted that to be a big focus of my career, I actually wanted it to be my primary career direction, in fact. So, I actually came to Berkeley with the intention of pursuing a career in science outreach leadership and science communication, and I knew that I wanted that to be a big part of my activity while pursuing my dissertation here in integrative biology because I also wanted to get the highest scientific training. So, while I've been here working on my dissertation I've also been doing a lot of work in science communication which started as just an attempt to improve my own skills because I realized a couple years into my program here that I myself was really struggling to explain my research to my own family members…Saintsing: Right.ElShafie: In a way that was at all meaningful to them. It really bothered me that I was struggling with that, so I decided to work on it, and I realized that I wasn't the only one that seemed to be having that challenge, and probably a lot of my peers could benefit from it as well, so I got really interested in storytelling, in story development because I figured, well everybody likes stories, so if I can talk about my science in that context, you know, and using storytelling, good storytelling then maybe I would get somewhere. And, I've always been a huge film buff and especially a huge fan of Pixar movies, and I knew that Pixar Animation Studios was actually only a couple miles from our campus. Pixar is in Emeryville, which was just south of Berkley, and so, I just decided to email them one day and actually got a response from a couple story artists who were really interested, and I invited them to come chat with grad students at our UC Museum of Paleontology. We’re based in integrative biology. And, it was going to be just a kind of pilot seminar conversation, let's just see where this goes with some grads, and it's turned into everyone from undergrads to emeritus faculty crammed into our little seminar room to hear from this story artist who was just talking about bread-and-butter stuff of the kind of strategies that they use to develop stories for their films at Pixar. And then, we had a conversation about how some of those strategies might apply to how we can talk to the public about science in a more effective and engaging way, and that was about three and a half years ago now, and since then, you know, that one seminar totally changed how I was thinking about science communication, and everybody else who was in the room responded really positively to it and remarked how useful it was, so that sparked an ongoing conversation and more and more artists at Pixar got involved volunteering their time, and now it's become this whole workshop series called Science through Story that I've been running for about three and a half years now. It started here at Berkeley on campus and has since, we've gone to other campuses, conferences, museums, organizations. So, yeah it's been a really, really fun experience and very helpful.Saintsing: Yeah, that sounds really incredible. So, you, you've taken this on the road. Is it still mostly Pixar is the main partner involved, or do you have like other studios, other artists involved?ElShafie: I've worked with other artists at this point, and the workshops, it's not a formal program of Pixar. Pixar doesn't sponsor it or anything financially. They've just been very generous in allowing their, some of the artists that work at the studio, anybody who wants to be involved to volunteer their time. So, several artists have come and run workshops with me here at Berkeley and at a few other campuses and conferences, and I meet with artists there periodically to learn from them about the creative process they use and how they approach story development, and then I adapt that into strategies that scientists and science educators can use to talk about science and an engaging way, using storytelling techniques, so Pixar people from Pixar have been involved. I've also worked with an artist who works at Industrial Light and Magic and a couple artists from DreamWorks Animation as well as an artist who was working at Double Fine productions and a guy who's a gentleman who started his own graphic design firm. Improv people, all kinds of artists through these workshops, and also we ran actually a full-day symposium called Science through Narrative: Engaging Broad Audiences, and that took place at a major biology conference, the Society for Integrative and Comparative Biology last year in 2018, when the meeting was here in San Francisco. We had a full day symposium on this topic, on science storytelling with speakers from both the scientific community and from different artistic disciplines all weighing in from their different perspectives and experiences on how to engage the audiences with science through storytelling and in different avenues, different media, different disciplines. It was really, really awesome because, to my knowledge, I think that's the first time that scientists and artists have spoken together on the same platform at a major biology conference, and we also had a lot of early career presenters involved as part of that, and out of that symposium we not only had the event itself but we also ended up publishing a whole volume of papers in a peer-reviewed biology journal, Integrative and Comparative Biology, which are now available online, and these are all peer-reviewed papers in a biology journal, but they are all written to be accessible to any reader even a high school student. Actually, we had some high school students in the past read it for some workshops that I've done at high schools in the area. We use papers from that symposium with REU, research experiences for undergraduates, program just this past summer. So, anybody can read them and get something out of it, and I, my own paper that I contributed to that volume is just called Making Science Engaging for Broad Audiences through Stories, something like that, and I wrote that paper for myself three years ago for any grad student or any student who wants to start doing more science communication or wants to get involved with science outreach and doesn't know where to start. If you're looking for a place to start, if that, if that sounds like you, then I encourage you to check out these papers because it's not just, you know, it's grad students, its scientists, its animators, it's video game developers, it's people who work in Hollywood, it’s people who work with data visualization. All kinds of voices weighing in on this, and, and they're really a fun read.Saintsing: That sounds like a really great resource.ElShafie: Yeah.Saintsing: I hope everyone takes the time to check that out. You started by talking to people at Pixar, and that was like obviously, Pixar's really close to Berkeley, and so that's sort of a matter of like convenience, right? But also, I just noticed that a lot of the people that you mentioned kind of are involved in special effects or animation or things like that? Is there a reason why that's more relatable to science, or is that just a matter of, like, you went down this avenue of talking to animators or people who are involved in animation and then that snowballed into more and more people who were involved in that side of the story developing process?ElShafie: It's a good question. Honestly, I think that scientists can learn something valuable from any type of artist, no matter what discipline because artists and scientists actually have a lot in common in terms of how we approach problems and, and what we're all trying to produce might seem very different, but ultimately the approach that we take is very similar. Both scientists and artists have to use their observation skills. That's very, very important for both conducting science and for doing art. It's all about observation. Both of us are trying to distill complexity out of a whole bunch of material that we could use, and we're trying to distill the most cogent, most cohesive, most compelling version of that story, of that study as we're presenting it, of that thing that we're trying to capture in some, some visual form or a musical form. So, it's distilling complexity. It's using the power of observation, and in terms of the artists that I ended up working with, that was just, it kind of was a combination of who I happen to meet through my networking, people that were introduced to me by colleagues that expressed interest, and we were really wonderfully fortunate that we got such a great variety of people involved. And, that was also part of it that we, you know, if we already had someone who is an animator, then we tried to get other disciplines that we didn't yet have represented for that symposium in particular. So, that was kind of how we went about it, but I would encourage scientists to talk to any and all kinds of artists because you can learn something valuable from anybody and any and all kinds of scientists.Saintsing: This is just a reminder that you’re tuned into The Graduates. Today I'm speaking with SaraElShafiefrom the Department of Integrative Biology. So, you mentioned that you came to Berkeley with the intent of being a science communicator?ElShafie: Yeah.Saintsing: Of pursuing some kind of leadership position in science outreach?ElShafie: When I came to Berkeley my, my long-term goal was to become like the director of a major science museum or science outreach nonprofit, something along those lines, and I knew that to do that I would, it would be really helpful if I had a PhD in science. People in those positions tend to be either previous professors or curators at museums or past CEOs or university presidents and I wasn't interested in the latter two so much, but I really wanted I wanted to learn more science. I wanted to get the highest scientific training, so that's why I came here to do my PhD because I was very upfront about my career aspirations in my interviews for PhD programs and when I came to Berkeley, they were just totally supportive of that. My advisor was very supportive, the people at the UC Museum of Paleontology that I spoke with were very supportive. So, I, that's why I came here and also because being in the Department of Integrative Biology, which has this wonderful resource, the Berkeley Natural History Museums. We have a paleontology museum; a zoology museum, the Museum of Vertebrate Zoology; plus an herbarium, the Jepson Herbarium; and the Essig Museum of Entomology with all the insects. We have all of those in-house, right in our own department, and, and all those museums, especially UCMP, is very, very active with science outreach. So, I realized that by coming to Integrative Biology at Berkeley, I could not only be doing my dissertation, which, Integrative Biology was perfect because I wanted to do research that integrated several different fields together, but also, I could be learning from these museum educators and people who do a lot of science outreach and community outreach. So, it was kind of like getting training in both areas at the same time.Saintsing: Right, so you graduated from undergrad knowing that you wanted to do science communication then, or was that more of a kind of developing process?ElShafie: I would say it was an ongoing process. I did my undergraduate work at the University of Chicago. I'm from Chicago originally, and, and I had a great experience at U Chicago. I was working in, at the UC, a new Chicago fossil lab there for years as an undergrad, and I did some research for a thesis and everything, but through that fossil lab, I also had the opportunity to participate in a lot of science outreach with Chicago Public Schools after school and summer science programs, and I really enjoyed that and I loved seeing the transformation that the students would go through just coming in not really sure if science is for them and then leaving much more empowered in general. Not just in seeing themselves as scientists. So, I knew that I wanted that type of work to be a big part of my career as I was graduating undergrad, and then when I went into my master's program which was at the University of Nebraska in Lincoln, coming in I knew that I wanted to pursue more scientific research and get my graduate degree, but one semester in I realized I think I actually want the outreach to be my main focus. I was really jazzed about the research I was doing. I was really enjoying it, but I was starting to realize that my primary passion was not just doing the science but actually sharing the science with other people who might not have access to it yet or might not be familiar with it or see themselves as, as scientists or understand the role that science plays in their lives. That was really my, my main focus that I wanted to take, but I also know I wanted the scientific training so I finished my masters in Nebraska, and fortunately my, my master's advisor in Nebraska was very supportive of that realization in that aspiration, and he basically said, hey if you want to be the bridge between science and the public, awesome. We need more people like that. Get your masters in science first because that'll open more doors to you down the road, but while you're here start exploring and figure out what that career path might look like for you. And, I was doing a lot of my data collection for my master's thesis in collections at natural history museums around the country, and through that, I was kind of reminded how much I love working with museums and loved being in museums and because that was a big part of my childhood growing up in Chicago which has great museums and zoos and aquaria and such. So, I knew that I wanted to work with museums and an informal education in some capacity and kind of by the time I finished my Master's, I had realized, yeah, I think I want to pursue a leadership position with a museum or some science outreach program because there seems to be a really big demand for people who can fill those positions, people who can wear the science hat but also have a lot of outreach, education, communication experience and also who understand how to manage a team and manage a budget.Saintsing: So, you would say that as a child it was probably your experiences going to museums that sparked this whole career interest in science and in science communication?ElShafie: Definitely, I would always be begging my parents to take me to the Field Museum or the Shedd Aquarium or the Brookfield Zoo or the Museum of Science and Industry. Growing up in Chicago those were like my favorite places to hang out, and, and in addition, I would visit my parents or my grandparents down in the Florida Keys every winter. They would spend the winters down there, and my grandfather was a fisherman, and he used to take me out on his fishing boat, and I would snorkel off of his boat and we would see dolphins jumping around, and I just, I think that's, that's the earliest memory that I have as a child, when I was like six and he took us out on Christmas Day and all these, this whole pod of dolphins came and jumped all around us and it was just the most magical thing I've ever had in my six-year-old memory. That's when I really fell in love with nature and animals, and I've been hooked ever since, and, and the specific focus has kind of changed over the course of my life from marine biology for a long time to paleontology to herpetology now, working with reptiles and, and kind of global change more broadly. And then, science communication and science outreach I think has always been part of my interest because I love to share my passion for nature with other people, and so, now it's kind of it's all come together now, working on my PhD and even tying in my interest in film, working with film artists and different kinds of artists as part of the science communication work. So, it's been a lot of fun.Saintsing: All right, I was gonna ask, so as a kid you really liked talking about science?ElShafie: Yeah.Saintsing: So, you're probably just telling everybody non-stop about all the cool scientific things you were learning?ElShafie: Oh, sure. Anybody who wanted or didn't want to know about dolphins and sharks and lizards and whatever I was reading about at the time. Yeah, I love that stuff.Saintsing: But then, you mentioned earlier, part of the reason why you started getting more interested in, at least the, what you wrote the article that you published with the symposium, that was partially to help you understand how to communicate science in some ways.ElShafie: Yeah, absolutely.Saintsing: So, would you say that maybe it's harder to communicate the science that you're actually doing than just to share scientific facts you're learning?ElShafie: Definitely. You've hit the nail on the head. I think it's, it's really fun and easy to just like share cool facts about animals because animals are very cool and there's lots of cool facts that you can share about them just you know in, in conversation, but when you're doing scientific research, especially, you know, long term in-depth scientific research, the specific questions of which might be a little bit more removed from people's everyday experience, it is a lot harder to figure out how to share that in an engaging way with other people you know. When I started my program here, if you asked me what's your research about, I would have jumped immediately into a detailed, jargon-laden explanation of how I study these lizards that lived 45 million years ago, and, and their body size got much bigger as the mean annual paleo temperature got a lot hotter in the Eocene and, and etc. And, you know, when I used to give that explanation to my family members, who are like farmers in rural Maryland, or my family members in Egypt on my dad's side, they would nod politely and, and be excited for me because I was clearly excited about it, but they couldn't relate to it at all because I wasn't connecting it to anything that they could relate to. So, now when people ask me what do you study I just start with, I study how climate change impacts animals over time. That's it.Saintsing: Right.ElShafie: And then, if they're really that interested, then maybe I would get into that I also use fossils, and if they're more interested, then maybe we get to the point of: I study reptiles and some of the details that we discussed earlier. But, it's, you know, it's, you almost have to unlearn a little bit of how you're trained to talk about your science as a graduate student. I think that's why it's really important for science communication training to be part of any graduate training program, no matter what your field is, especially if you're, if you're in a STEM field, if you're training to be some kind of scientist because it's when we write our, you know, technical papers we have to talk about science in a particular way, but even there having some story structure can really help the paper flow, but when you're talking about science with broader audiences, especially non-specialist audiences or even scientists outside of your own field, it really helps if you can start at a more general level where everybody can, can clue in and, and relate to what you're saying and then you get into more detail from there as, as needed. But, you don't even need to go to that level of detail in most cases. People just want the general sense of what you're doing. I think the most important thing to keep in mind is who is your audience, who are you talking to, and what is your goal for that audience, what do you want them to take away from your interaction with them, and that might be something specific like, I want them to understand what's really cool about this method I'm using. It might be more general like I simply want this person to understand that I'm a human being who cares about the same things that they do.Saintsing: Right, we're coming up at the end of our interview. Typically at the end of the interview we just offer our guests a moment to speak on any issue they'd like to speak about, about social issues or about their topic, their research area in science, or really anything you'd like to address to the listeners.ElShafie: Sure. Appreciate it. I would love to say to anybody listening who is not currently in a science graduate degree program but if you're interested in science in any capacity then I hope that you pursue that interest in some form, whether it's pursuing a degree in science or even just learning about whatever scientific field you're interested in, and, and I encourage you to bring your other interests into that as well. I think the, the best scientists I know who are the most creative about how they approach their science are those who are interested in lots of different things, and, and, and vice versa. So, I think combining interests in lots of different fields is actually a really, it's, it's a great way to enrich your work no matter what you do, and, and scientists want to meet you, and scientists want to talk to you no matter what it is you do. We love, we love talking about science, but we also love learning about other things other than science because that just enriches our perspective about how we approach science. So, if you're an artist, if you're an educator, if you're a farmer, if you are whoever you are no matter what you do, please come chat with us because we'd love to meet you, and if you're a scientist listening, I really encourage you to step outside of academia as often as you can, especially if you're a graduate student or postdoc, you know. Don't wait until you finish your degree or until you get your career up and running. It already is running, and I think the more you meet and interact with people outside of science, the better scientist you will be because it will, you learn how other people think and that's really important for science communication, but it also just enriches your perspective and enhances your appreciation for what you do, and it's also a lot of fun, and especially if you have interests outside of science whether it's a hobby or another field or whatever it is, don't wait to dabble in that. Get involved with it. Take a class. Read a book. Join a group. Whatever it is, get involved with that now because being involved in lots of different things and expanding your horizons while you're in grad school is really great for your mental and emotional health, and, and it also just gives you a broader sense of how you can use your scientific training in the world, whether you want to pursue academia or potentially something else.Saintsing: Right, open dialogue with people who don't study the same thing as you, who are coming from different backgrounds, that would be good not just for scientists but for everyone, right?ElShafie: Mm-hmm.Saintsing: Yeah, but yeah especially for scientists. That's a great message, Sara. Thank you so much for being on the show. It was really great.ElShafie: It was a lot of fun talking to you today. Thank you so much for having me.Saintsing: I've been speaking with SaraElShafiefrom the Department of Integrative Biology. We were speaking about her interest in global climate change and how she communicates her science to the public. Tune in and two weeks for the next episode of The Graduates.