Share

cover art for Mike Cook - Next Level: Making Games That Make Themselves

The Game Developers' Library

Mike Cook - Next Level: Making Games That Make Themselves

Ep. 9
•

Buy Books But Not From Bezos: https://uk.bookshop.org/shop/indiegameclinic

IGC Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/indiegameclinic


Music:

GDL Theme created by Joe Baxter-Webb especially for the show. No Generative AI was used.

The music during the ad break was Backdrop Lady by John Runefelt, licensed via Epidemic Sound https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NkdfV5NQxw


Games in the Book:

Elite: https://playclassic.games/games/space-simulation-dos-games-online/play-elite-online/

Rogue: https://www.myabandonware.com/game/rogue-4n/play-4n

Spelunky: https://playclassic.games/games/platform-windows-games-online/spelunky/

Dwarf Fortress: https://store.steampowered.com/app/975370/Dwarf_Fortress/

Caves of Qud: https://store.steampowered.com/app/333640/Caves_of_Qud/

AI Dungeon: https://aidungeon.com/


Games in the Book We Neglected to Discuss:

Black & White: https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/postmortem-lionhead-studios-i-black-white-i-

Creatures: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-6DzI-krUQ


Additional Resources on Key Topics:

Mike Cook ProcGen Talk 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3daNITP9vBc

Mike Cook ProcGen Talk 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SGEcrRFuv4

ProcJam on itch.io: https://itch.io/jam/procjam

Drunk Cats in DF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yWf6BHqiWM

Probability Curves with Dice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEW6OufmGfs

Wave Function Collapse explainer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI_y2GAlQFM

Redblock Games Perlin Maps: https://www.redblobgames.com/maps/terrain-from-noise/

Cyclic Dungeon Generation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wvkTT-6P3Q

Doom Level Progress Diagrams: https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/100569-level-progress-diagrams-%E2%80%93-2002ado/


Perlin Noise explainer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMj3WU4gORI

Spelunky Level Gen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uqk5Zf0tw3o

Article on "Yomi": https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/what-is-yomi-

Jamie Cheng interview on Designer Notes: https://soundcloud.com/idlethumbs/designer-notes-jamie-cheng

Derren Brown vs 9 Chess Players: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIAXIubSTkc

Design/Play/Disrupt at the V&A https://www.vam.ac.uk/exhibitions/videogames?srsltid=AfmBOopAVyltddhnMhkoRQrXIT01B80O1KNmBq8zMCDYpmq0PKb7GRv4

Engelstein on Loss Aversion at GDC https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_1YcCcBVfY&t=2958s


Other Games Mentioned

Map Painter '84: https://acellular.itch.io/map-painter-84

Elite Dangerous: https://store.steampowered.com/app/359320/Elite_Dangerous/

Populous: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populous_(video_game)

Dungeon Keeper: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1996630/Dungeon_Keeper_Gold/

Rimworld: https://store.steampowered.com/app/294100/RimWorld/

Bad North: https://store.steampowered.com/app/688420/Bad_North_Jotunn_Edition/

Baldurs Gate 3: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1086940/Baldurs_Gate_3/

Disco Elysium: https://store.steampowered.com/app/632470/Disco_Elysium__The_Final_Cut/

Skyrim: https://store.steampowered.com/app/489830/The_Elder_Scrolls_V_Skyrim_Special_Edition/

Alien Isolation: https://store.steampowered.com/app/214490/Alien_Isolation/

Arc Raiders: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1808500/ARC_Raiders/

Fable 3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fable_III

Oregon Trail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pze05Fz_rh8&t=1s


Tom's itch.io: https://tchom.itch.io/


Joe's Stuff:

Golem Gourmet on Steam: https://store.steampowered.com/app/4209800/Golem_Gourmet/

Strange Voyage on BlueSky: https://bsky.app/profile/strangevoyage.bsky.social

ThanetGuide on X: https://x.com/ThanetGuide

Joe's article of Baldur's Gate 3 and the silliness of seeing D&D as "IP" when it's also a pre-designed ruleset: https://medium.com/@indiegameclinic/dungeons-dragons-isnt-just-i-p-the-real-game-dev-lessons-of-baldur-s-gate-3-c086bc6c4f35

More episodes

View all episodes

  • 8. Anna Anthropy - Rise of the Videogame Zinesters

    01:39:02||Ep. 8
    In this episode, Tom and Joe read and respond to Rise of the Videogame Zinesters: How Freaks, Normals, Amateurs, Artists, Dreamers, Drop-outs, Queers, Housewives Are Taking Back an Art Form.Patreon.com/indiegameclinic

  • 7. Tynan Sylvester - Designing Games: A Guide to Engineering Experiences

    01:35:01||Ep. 7
    In this episode we read Rimworld creator Tynan Sylvester's design textbook.00:00 introOVERVIEW01:34 situating the book in our collection07:55 signposting cultural politics10:30 book's structure & approachPHILOSOPHY & PSYCHOLOGY 17:33 engines of experience20:30 events and anticipation23:09 emotion and human values27:50 an interesting take on "flow"INTERESTING AREAS/CHAPTERS30:30 challenge & mastery34:12 flexible meanings of "narrative"40:34 decisions types & intensities 47:05 strategy design & balance50:18 predicting your opponent ("yomi")55:38 game theory & griefing01:01:40 some other chapters/topicsPRODUCTION / PROCESSES01:03:20 the market and the specificity of game appeal01:02:45 processes and planning01:07:40 knowledge, research, and evaluating ideas01:09:00 the dependency stack01:13:00 collaboration, sensitivity and the Rimworld controversy01:31:05 what we're reading next timeThe theme song was produced by show host Joe Baxter-Webb.The Ludonarrative Dissonance jingle was "Carvings" by Blood of Geruda, licensed from Epidemic Sound. RELATED TOPICS:Misattribution of Arousal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misattribution_of_arousalGame Theory & (ir)rationality: https://larspsyll.wordpress.com/2025/02/15/what-is-wrong-with-game-theory/Swagless Games: https://www.polygon.com/code-vein-2-swagless-game/Jeff Vogel GDC talk about serving a market gap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs&t=1746sTynan Sylvester GDC talk on the idea reservoir: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdqhHKjepiE&t=3113s

  • 6. Scott McCloud - Understanding Comics, The Invisible Art

    01:20:38||Ep. 6
    In this episode we attempt to verbally describe a comic book. But not just any comic book. Scott McCloud's 1993 "Understanding Comics" is a comic about comics; not necessarily how to make them, but how they "work" for readers. Your librarians Tom and Joe jump about the book in no particular order, picking apart what they personally got from the book, and highlighting areas where we think there's something interesting in there for an indie dev. TOPICS INCLUDE:> how videogames are interactive cartoons> semiotics and the psychology of images> how "gaps" and "holes" in stories create engagement> nonlinear narrative in different media> starting projects with "ideas" vs starting with craftTIMESTAMPS:00:00 intro 01:45 why this book06:15 overview11:35 indie games and cartoon aesthetics14:02 two mediums with the same status issue16:22 iconic representation and identification18:55 history and definition of comics23:02 the semiotics of comics30:12 the three types of image41:00 gamers love a ruined city44:48 time is weird in comics49:45 "closure" in media psychology52:33 non-linear moments in comics57:29 the meaning of lines and colours59:20 showing & telling / multimodality65:35 self-referentiality as a sign of a mature medium68:50 McClouds 6 Steps of Creativity73:20 finishing projects vs starting new ones68:13 what's next?OTHER REFERENCES:Juniper Dev on Little White Guys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=banRsciq1wwIan Bogost's 2023 essay on Gone Home: https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/perpetual-adolescence-the-fullbright-companys-gone-home/"Storyteller" Comicbook-Interface Puzzle Game: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1624540/Storyteller/"Her Story" Narrative Puzzle Game https://store.steampowered.com/app/368370/Her_Story/"The Beginner's Guide" (example of a "reflexive"/self-referential game) https://store.steampowered.com/app/303210/The_Beginners_Guide/wiki page of Pierre Bourdieu's "Distinction" (sociology of taste) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinction_(book)The original game design "MDA Theory" paper: chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://users.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/MDA.pdfMcCloud's 6 Steps of Creativity explained using SoundCloud Rappers: https://rudycraiglcgr.blogspot.com/2016/08/this-for-lcgn-class-we-had-to-read.htmlDerek Yu on finishing games: https://makegames.tumblr.com/post/1136623767/finishing-a-game

  • 5. Kim Nordström - UP DOWN UP: Why some game companies succeed, while others fail

    01:10:03||Ep. 5
    Other Sources DiscussedFailing to Fail: The Spiderweb Software Way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs&t=2794sRadical Candor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_Candor

  • 4. Jason Schreier - Blood, Sweat, and Pixels: The Triumphant, Turbulent Stories Behind How Video Games Are Made

    01:28:23||Ep. 4
    In this episode we discuss Jason Schreier's journalistic account of the creation of a bunch of different games, ranging from huge AAA games like DragonAge: Inquisition, to smaller indie ones like Shovel Knight and Stardew Valley.Game Developers' Library is a regular podcast covering books which may be helpful to people who make games. Tom Hughes is a full-time game developer, and Joe Baxter-Webb is a game designer and game dev content creator.The reading list of GDL is here on Bookshop.org https://uk.bookshop.org/lists/the-game-developers-library-podcast-reading-list?

  • 3. Jesse Schell - The Art of Game Design: A Book of Lenses

    01:16:20||Ep. 3
    In this episode we cover this weighty game design textbook, discussing its stronger and weaker areas, how it can help new developers to understand design and player psychology, and why so many more technically-oriented folks bounce off the book. Host Joe Baxter-Webb is a game design educator and YouTuber. He has previously been the course lead in Game Design at Canterbury Christ Church University, and has helped develop for multiple commercial games companies including King (Candy Crush Soda Saga) Karta (Blackpink in Roblox, Spotify in Fortnite) and Adult Swim Games. Guest host Jeremy Johnson is an indie dev and also Assistant Professor of Video Game Development at St. Edward's University, Texas, USA, where he teaches from A Book of Lenses every semester. Most books mentioned are available via my bookshop.org affiliate page. This allows you to purchase books online in a way which benefits small local retailers. https://uk.bookshop.org/shop/indiegameclinicother things cited:Deck of Lenses, the free online version: https://deck.artofgamedesign.com/#/menu/0/?lang=enBrian Eno's Oblique Strategies, online version: https://stoney.sb.org/eno/oblique.htmlAchievement Relocked: Loss Aversion and Game Design by Geoff Engelstein: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Achievement-Relocked-Aversion-Playful-Thinking/dp/026204353XFermat and Pascal on Probability (on the games-based origins of probability math): chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.york.ac.uk/depts/maths/histstat/pascal.pdfGeorge Fan: How I Got My Mom to Play Through Plants vs. Zombies https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbzhHSexzpYPurple Cow by Seth Godin, Animated Book Summary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QkPaJ299UkThe Writer Will Do Something by Matthew Seiji: https://matthewseiji.itch.io/twwdsthe "Japanese inventor with 3500 patents" was Dr. Nakamatsu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnjSjJOEfScThe reading list of GDL is here on Bookshop.org https://uk.bookshop.org/lists/the-game-developers-library-podcast-reading-list?

  • 2. Raph Koster - A Theory of Fun For Game Design

    01:16:33||Ep. 2
    I discuss Raph Koster's game design classic from 2004. Is this a book about craft, or about ethics?The reading list of GDL is here on Bookshop.org https://uk.bookshop.org/lists/the-game-developers-library-podcast-reading-list?

  • 1. Derek Yu - Spelunky

    01:15:35||Ep. 1
    We discuss Spelunky by Derek Yu, which was published by Boss Fight Books in 2016. This episode is hosted by Joe Baxter-Webb (game design educator and host of Indie Game Clinic) and game developer Tom Hughes.The reading list of GDL is here on Bookshop.org https://uk.bookshop.org/lists/the-game-developers-library-podcast-reading-list?
Copyright Indie Clinic Media Ltd.
Hosted with ❤️ by Acast