Share
That's What I Call Marketing
TWICM 208: System 1's Andrew Tindall & Vanessa Chin: Feels Vs Deals - the real battle for Q4
•
What should marketers take from Cannes Lions once the presentations are over and the real work of planning for Q4 begins?
In this special crossover episode of That’s What I Call Marketing and The Sleeping Barber Podcast, System1’s Andrew Tindall and Vanessa Chin join Conor Byrne, Marc Binkley and V to explore what the latest marketing thinking means in practice for brands, agencies and creative teams.
The conversation begins with Mark Ritson and Byron Sharp’s Cannes debate, looking at where they agree, where important differences remain and why marketers need to go beyond familiar headlines on penetration, distinctiveness, consistency and brand purpose. Andrew and Vanessa discuss whether distinctiveness alone can drive growth, why differentiation still matters and how the search for “new news” can lead brands to abandon creative assets before they have built recognition.
The episode also examines how AI is changing advertising. Rather than removing people from the process, AI is becoming part of production, helping brands adapt and localise ideas more efficiently. The group considers Coca-Cola’s AI Christmas advertising, PepsiCo adapting Lay’s creative for Walkers in the UK, and why human judgement still matters. There are practical lessons on creator marketing, brand characters, fluent devices and staying consistent. Andrew explains why creators should be treated as creative partners who understand their platforms, not as interchangeable media assets.
The discussion then turns to audio and radio advertising. System1 research suggests campaigns using audio can produce stronger business effects, support profit and penetration, and reduce price sensitivity. The group explores sonic branding, jingles and why radio should not be treated only as a short-term performance channel.
Attention matters, but it is not the end goal. Andrew explains why marketers need to move from impressions, to attention, and ultimately to the brand memories advertising creates.
The episode closes with a practical Q4 playbook for Black Friday, Cyber Monday and Christmas. “Salesmanship” may deliver immediate conversion, but emotional “showmanship” builds memories, demand and pricing power. The lesson: focus on the feels, not only the deals.
CHAPTERS
03:24 Ritson and Sharp at Cannes
04:45 Distinctiveness versus differentiation
06:00 Is brand purpose outdated?
08:00 Why marketers struggle with consistency
11:05 Turning theory into growth
13:09 AI, creativity and human judgement
16:10 How PepsiCo uses AI in advertising
19:05 Why AI was quieter at Cannes
19:55 AI avatars and brand characters
22:01 Why marketers need to stay the course
22:54 When did a campaign become a media flight?
24:45 Turning Cannes insights into a Q4 plan
25:22 The “Double Double” audio research
28:04 Why audio matters
30:13 What makes an effective radio ad?
32:29 Why radio is more than a performance channel
34:00 Storytelling and creating an audio world
36:50 Should creators work across every channel?
38:00 What System1’s creator research found
40:54 Is Q4 the right time for a fluent device?
42:06 Moving from attention to brand memory
46:36 Can brands be built through Meta and TikTok?
48:49 Why brands need to appear early
50:02 The Q4 marketing playbook
50:43 Make people feel something
51:52 Black Friday: deals versus feels
52:23 Salesmanship, showmanship and short-term optimisation
54:48 What marketers can learn from Amazon
56:26 Feels, not deals
57:01 Why brands should re-air effective Christmas ads
58:00 Consumers do not get bored of good advertising
This episode was created in partnership with System1. Find out more at system1group.com.
Subscribe to That’s What I Call Marketing for more conversations on brand growth, marketing effectiveness and creative strategy.
That’s What I Call Marketing is where marketers come for real conversations about brand, B2B, creativity, effectiveness and the future of the profession.
Hosted by Conor Byrne, the show features conversations with CMOs, marketing leaders, agency leaders, authors, thinkers and practitioners about what good marketing looks like in practice.
- Listen, follow and find more episodes at: https://www.thatswhaticallmarketing.com
- Connect with Conor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/conorbyrneirl/
- If you enjoy the show, please follow, subscribe and leave a review. It helps more marketers find the conversations.
More episodes
View all episodes
TWICM 209: The Singles: If Carlsberg Did Podcasts, Did Sydney Sweeney work, Norway winning the World Cup and the AI Brand Wars
33:13|In this episode of The Singles on That’s What I Call Marketing, Conor Byrne is joined by Bella and Ed from Tracksuit to unpack the biggest marketing stories right now using brand tracking data. They dive into the AI brand wars between ChatGPT/OpenAI and Claude/Anthropic, including how Super Bowl advertising impacted awareness and consideration, and discuss how people use each tool for work vs personal life. The team shares Tracksuit’s acquisition of Hall, a Sydney startup that measures how brands show up in AI answers, helping marketers understand AI discoverability and sentiment. They also revisit American Eagle’s Sydney Sweeney campaign one year on (awareness gains vs declines in consideration and investigation), break down Norwegian Air’s playful British Airways newsjacking around Norway’s World Cup momentum, and explore Carlsberg’s revival of the “If Carlsberg Did…” platform and what it could mean for brand funnel performance.01:05 Today’s Marketing Hot Topics02:11 AI Brand Wars Data05:27 Who Uses Claude vs ChatGPT07:52 AI Use Cases and Model Fatigue12:54 Tracking AI Visibility17:31 American Eagle One Year Later21:44 BA vs Norwegian Newsjacking26:44 Carlsberg Revives Classic PlatformCheck out tracksuit
TWICM 207: Samsung Ads’ Matt Butts on Marketing Science and the Rigour Behind Better Decisions
25:26|Matt Butts, Head of Marketing Science at Samsung Ads Europe, joins That’s What I Call Marketing to discuss marketing science, incrementality, connected TV measurement and why rigorous testing matters more than a positive result. This episode explains how marketers can move beyond convenient metrics, design better experiments and connect advertising activity to meaningful business outcomes. Matt also explores how changing television behaviours are reshaping media planning, audience measurement and the role of connected TV.In this episode, we cover:– Why marketers often measure metrics without questioning whether they matter– The difference between basic A/B testing and genuine incrementality testing– Why the quality of the test matters more than whether the result is positive– How marketing scientists translate complex analysis into commercial decisions– How Samsung Ads measures viewing across linear television, streaming and gaming– Why reported reach can hide significant audience duplication– How incremental reach can reduce media waste and identify missed audiences– The role of connected TV data in advertising planning and measurement– Why marketers need to communicate measurement differently to CMOs, CFOs and media teams– How rigorous measurement helped one advertiser move from zero investment to a seven-figure commitmentMatt argues that marketing science should not simply validate decisions that have already been made. Its role is to challenge assumptions, identify what would have happened without the advertising and give marketers evidence they can confidently use to make better investment decisions.A useful listen for marketers interested in marketing science, advertising effectiveness, connected TV, incrementality, media measurement, experimentation and commercial impact.Timestamps01:16 How Matt found his way into marketing science02:19 How advertising measurement has changed03:27 Are marketers measuring things without knowing why?04:27 Why measurement assumptions must be tested continually05:02 Do marketers know how to test properly?06:00 The limitations of basic A/B testing06:17 Why incrementality is the missing part of marketing testing07:18 The importance of statisticians, data scientists and translation08:13 Matt’s journey to Samsung Ads08:18 What Samsung Ads does09:00 How television viewing behaviour has changed10:18 Balancing audience precision, relevance and scale11:02 Relevance without intrusive personalisation12:19 Samsung Ads’ Total View measurement capability12:36 Audience duplication, incremental reach and missed audiences13:40 Why platform reach figures can be misleading14:06 What a Head of Marketing Science actually does14:40 Building advertiser-specific measurement playbooks15:16 Using measurement to improve future advertising investment15:23 How to explain incrementality to senior business leaders15:41 Why marketers need to understand marketing science17:00 How measurement feeds into marketing mix models17:33 A real example of fixing incomplete advertising data19:00 How a geo test led to a seven-figure investment19:43 Why negative test results should not frighten marketers20:40 Combining scientific rigour with commercial thinking21:51 What comes next for connected TV measurement22:00 Connecting television and mobile data23:30 Why marketing measurement must keep pace with human behaviourThat’s What I Call Marketing is the podcast for marketers who care about brand, B2B, creativity, effectiveness and the future of the profession.Follow the show for more conversations with CMOs, marketing leaders, agency leaders, professors, authors, thinkers and practitioners.Find more episodes at: https://www.thatswhaticallmarketing.comThanks to the Digital Voice for their partnership https://www.thedigitalvoice.co.uk/
TWICM 206: Nectar360’s Amir Rasekh on Customer Insight, Retail Media and Agentic Commerce
28:06|Amir Rasekh, Managing Director of Nectar360, joins That’s What I Call Marketing to discuss customer insight, retail media, AI-powered measurement and how agentic commerce could change the way people shop.This episode explains how retail media has evolved from loyalty data, targeted coupons and direct mail into a sophisticated, measurable channel spanning in-store, onsite and offsite media.In this episode, we cover:– Why customer insight remains the foundation of effective retail media– How Nectar360 connects loyalty, insight and retail media in one customer-focused system– Why brands hold retail media to a higher measurement standard than traditional channels– How Nectar360 measures incrementality and multi-touch attribution across omnichannel campaigns– How its AI-powered Pollen platform makes campaign planning, creative production and measurement faster– What agentic commerce could mean for retailers, marketers and customer decision-making– Why AI should support better human relationships rather than remove the people involvedAmir also shares early results from Pollen, including 2.5 times more incremental sales from omnichannel campaigns and evidence that retail media can influence the middle and upper parts of the marketing funnel, rather than acting only as a conversion channel.The conversation also explores an important tension for marketers: technology can make retail media simpler, faster and more measurable, but clients still expect strong relationships, expertise and human judgement. A useful listen for marketers interested in customer insight, retail media, marketing measurement, AI in marketing, incrementality, omnichannel strategy and the future of commerce.Timestamps00:00 Introduction01:27 Amir Rasekh’s career in retail and Sainsbury’s04:34 Building an insight-led culture05:00 What Nectar360 does today06:06 Why retail media suddenly became so prominent07:18 The fundamentals of retail media08:52 Why measurement expectations are increasing10:28 Introducing Nectar360’s Pollen platform12:15 Are marketers rigorous enough when testing campaigns?13:33 How AI accelerated retail media technology14:21 AI audience building, creative scoring and production14:38 Cutting creative production from weeks to 90 seconds14:59 Early results from omnichannel retail media16:10 Retail media as a brand-building channel17:05 How customer shopping behaviour is changing18:00 What agentic commerce means for retail20:03 Will consumers shop through ChatGPT and AI agents?22:16 Why physical stores still matter24:00 How Nectar360’s teams are using AI25:16 Building AI literacy across an organisation25:47 Why clients do not want technology to replace people26:04 Closing thoughtsThat’s What I Call Marketing is the podcast for marketers who care about brand, B2B, creativity, effectiveness and the future of the profession.Follow the show for more conversations with CMOs, marketing leaders, agency leaders, professors, authors, thinkers and practitioners.Find more episodes at: https://www.thatswhaticallmarketing.comThis Cannes Sessions episode is produced in partnership with The Digital Voice.Find out more at: https://www.thedigitalvoice.co.uk
TWICM 205: GumGum’s Pete Wallace on Why Attention Matters More Than Ad Clicks
22:36|What does attention actually tell us about whether advertising is working?Pete Wallace, Managing Director EMEA at GumGum, explains why clicks remain a poor measure of advertising effectiveness and how attention can help marketers connect media exposure with real brand outcomes.Pete shares how GumGum combines contextual signals, attention data, time, device and creative performance to predict the mindset of an audience. He brings this to life through GumGum’s work with the BBC and Havas on *Celebrity Traitors*, where targeting and creative changed as tension and excitement around the programme developed.We also discuss why there is no universal number of seconds that guarantees attention, how creative testing can reveal when branding should appear, and why advertising needs to respect the environment in which it appears.The conversation then moves into privacy, the value exchange between advertising and free content, the problem with ad tech companies using the same language, and why marketers need to ask more difficult questions about the technology behind their media plans.Pete also reflects on moving from agency life into ad tech and leading teams across Europe, Japan and Australia, where different cultures require different approaches to pitching, testing and decision-making.## In this episode, you will learn:* Why attention can be more useful than clicks as a measure of advertising effectiveness* How contextual advertising can predict consumer mindset without relying on personal identity* How GumGum adapted targeting and creative during the BBC’s *Celebrity Traitors** Why every brand may require a different attention benchmark* How creative attention data can improve branding and message placement* Why advertising works best when it respects the surrounding content* How marketers can test ad technology rather than accepting similar-sounding sales pitches* What Pete has learned from leading teams across different international markets## Timestamps01:38 Pete’s journey from media agencies into ad tech03:23 The difference between agency life and working in sales05:33 What GumGum does and how the business has developed06:00 Using data signals to predict consumer mindset06:55 How GumGum worked on the BBC’s *Celebrity Traitors*08:46 Why attention has always influenced media planning09:25 Connecting attention to business and brand outcomes10:21 How GumGum measures attention11:15 Why there is no universal attention benchmark11:23 Using attention data to improve creative execution12:45 Matching advertising to the environment around it13:34 Why brands are asking more questions about ad technology14:33 Where GumGum fits within the modern media plan14:40 Why marketers need greater digital and technical knowledge15:12 Are marketers rigorous enough when testing media?16:00 The problem with every ad tech company sounding the same17:00 Why campaign learning needs to feed into future activity17:42 Leading teams across Europe, Japan and Australia18:23 How culture changes client expectations and ways of working20:01 Balancing global consistency with local flexibility21:23 What international markets can learn from one another*The Cannes Sessions are brought to you in partnership with The Digital Voice.*
TWICM 204: Why Simplicity Wins in Ad Tech with Limelight Founder James MacDonald
29:07|James MacDonald, Founder of Limelight, joins That’s What I Call Marketing to discuss programmatic advertising, building a global ad tech business, AI and why simplicity still matters for marketers today.This episode explores the journey from Fleet Street advertising sales to modern programmatic technology, through a practical conversation about risk, reinvention, customer focus, remote culture and building technology that solves real problems.In this episode, we cover:– What Fleet Street taught James about sales, resilience and asking for the business– Why helping people buy is more powerful than pushing people to buy– How James identified the gap that led to Limelight– Why programmatic advertising still needs simplicity, support and better execution– How Limelight thinks about AI, interoperability and the importance of human judgement– What it takes to build and maintain a strong remote culture across a global teamA useful listen for marketers interested in ad tech, programmatic advertising, AI in marketing, founder stories, sales, customer success, remote teams and building through change.That’s What I Call Marketing is the podcast for marketers who care about brand, B2B, creativity, effectiveness and the future of the profession.Follow the show for more conversations with CMOs, marketing leaders, agency leaders, professors, authors, thinkers and practitioners.Find more episodes at: https://www.thatswhaticallmarketing.comThis Cannes Sessions episode is brought to you in partnership with The Digital Voice.Find out more at: https://www.thedigitalvoice.co.uk01:38 Starting out on Fleet Street03:19 What early sales teaches you04:35 From eggs to advertising06:27 Helping people buy, not pushing a sale07:04 Mentors, mistakes and learning through failure07:11 Starting again and founding Limelight09:31 Finding the right business partner10:59 Identifying the gap in programmatic12:00 Building the Limelight platform14:00 Taking risks as a founder15:59 Building culture as the company grows16:42 Running a fully remote global business18:17 What Limelight does20:49 How people discover Limelight22:16 Listening to customers and building the product23:33 AI, human judgement and interoperability26:05 Why simplicity matters in technology
TWICM 203: Julia Linehan on PR, AI Search and Why Amplification Matters
21:23|Julia Linehan, Founder and CEO of The Digital Voice, joins That’s What I Call Marketing to discuss Cannes Lions, the changing role of PR, AI search, trusted sources and why amplification matters for marketers today.This episode explores how brands, agencies and marketing leaders need to think about discoverability in a world where search, AI, content and credibility are all changing at pace.In this episode, we cover:– Why The Digital Voice describes itself as an amplification partner, not a traditional PR agency– How AI search and LLMs are changing the value of trusted, published content– Why consistency, repetition and clear messaging matter more than ever– What it takes to plan properly for Cannes Lions and create real value from the week– How Julia has built a fully remote team with strong culture, energy and trust– Why Cannes needs to stay accessible for students, publishers, creators and smaller businessesA useful listen for marketers interested in PR, brand visibility, AI in marketing, thought leadership, Cannes Lions, agency leadership and the future of discoverability.That’s What I Call Marketing is the podcast for marketers who care about brand, B2B, creativity, effectiveness and the future of the profession.Follow the show for more conversations with CMOs, marketing leaders, agency leaders, professors, authors, thinkers and practitioners.Find more episodes at: https://www.thatswhaticallmarketing.comVisit the Digital voice at https://www.thedigitalvoice.co.uk/
The Singles: The hot hits of June with The World Cup, Spotify, Brew Dog & The Lotto
30:06|In the latest episode of The Singles, Conor is joined by Ed Parkin and Bella Harrison from Tracksuit to dig into four marketing stories where the headlines only tell part of the story.The episode starts with the FIFA World Cup and what it could mean for soccer in the US. Major League Soccer still has a long way to go versus the NFL, NBA and MLB on awareness, but Tracksuit data shows consideration is already moving in the right direction. The conversation gets into younger audiences, affluent consumer skews, regional growth and why feeling “for people like me” matters so much in sports marketing.Then it’s onto World Cup sponsorship. Coca-Cola, Adidas and McDonald’s show what decades of investment can do when brand associations compound over time, while Mengniu shows how sponsorship can still create warmth for a lesser-known brand.The team also discuss Spotify’s temporary 20th anniversary logo, the backlash it received, and whether marketers sometimes overreact when a strong brand plays with its distinctive assets. With 88% awareness and very strong consideration, Spotify has more room to experiment than most.BrewDog is next. Once valued at £2bn and now sold for £33m, it is a reminder that awareness can remain even when consideration, usage and preference are falling. The discussion also looks at James Watt’s new brand, Second Best, and whether founder-led challenger energy can travel from one brand to another.Finally, the episode turns to the Irish National Lottery ad controversy, after its new work closely followed a New Zealand Lottery ad scene for scene. The question is not whether the insight worked. It did. The question is what happens when inspiration becomes imitation.Tracksuit University is also featured in the episode, including how it helps marketers make the case for brand in a more finance-friendly way.Get 20% off Tracksuit University with the discount code: That’s What I Call MarketingVisit: university.gotracksuit.comIn this episode:00:00 Introduction01:24 Tracksuit University and making brand finance-friendly02:48 The FIFA World Cup and soccer in the US03:47 MLS awareness, consideration and growth potential05:25 Younger audiences, affluent consumers and regional skews06:49 Why relevance matters in sports marketing09:02 World Cup sponsorship and long-term brand investment13:00 Spotify’s 20th anniversary logo backlash16:31 Why Spotify has earned the right to play with its assets18:21 BrewDog’s sale and brand decline20:01 Trust, relevance and the erosion of BrewDog’s core audience21:01 Second Best and the future of founder-led brands23:33 The Irish National Lottery ad controversy26:45 Distinctiveness, copying and creative shortcuts29:07 Tracksuit University discount details
The Cannes Sessions - TWICM X The Uncensored CMO
06:08|Jon Evans (Uncensored CMO) on Going Solo: Sponsorship, Podcasting as Networking & Cashflow RealityConor Byrne chats with Jon Evans (Uncensored CMO) about leaving the CMO track to run his podcast full time, using sponsorship to fund the work and turning “being good at talking” into a career. Jon explains why podcasting is a powerful networking tool—CMOs often decline coffee but say yes to being a guest—and how it accelerates learning by speaking to experts weekly. He also shares the less glamorous surprises of working for yourself: contracts, running a business properly, cashflow, and the difficulty of getting paid on time while supporting a team. Jon stresses that success is a long grind—“seven years to have an overnight success”—and that consistency and compounding effort are what make creator-led media businesses work in marketing.