That's What I Call Marketing

Laura Burkhauser, CEO of Descript, explains the surprising truth about what actually grows a product.Most marketing advice assumes growth comes from better targeting, smarter funnels, or stronger loyalty. Laura sees it differently.In this episode, we get into what actually drives product growth — and why some of the most widely accepted ideas in marketing and SaaS don’t hold up when you look at real behaviour. From why freemium often fails, to why loyalty doesn’t grow your business (but still matters), to what AI will and won’t change — this is a grounded, operator-level view of how products actually scale.If you work in marketing, product, or growth, this will likely challenge a few default assumptions.In this episode, we cover:Growth doesn’t come from loyalty — it comes from penetrationMost freemium models don’t work the way companies think they do“Target audiences” often aren’t real, connected communitiesAI will amplify creativity, not replace itCustomer care is one of the last real competitive advantages02:00 – What Descript actually is and who it’s for04:30 – Product vs product marketing: the career fork that shapes everything07:30 – Why big tech can slow you down (and what startups get right)10:00 – Moving from product leader to CEO — what actually changes13:30 – The freemium myth: why it didn’t work the way they expected15:00 – “Are we dating or not?” — a better model for product growth16:30 – How products actually get discovered (SEO, content, and reality)18:00 – Why most “target audiences” aren’t real communities20:30 – The shift from founder-led to customer-led companies22:00 – What customers are actually good at telling you (and what they’re not)24:30 – Why customer care is a competitive advantage (and why most companies cut it)25:00 – Loyalty isn’t growth — but it might be your moat26:00 – How to actually achieve penetration in a crowded market28:00 – The challenge of building a product for “everyone”30:00 – AI, content, and the future of podcasting — what’s real vs hype33:00 – Why most AI-generated content won’t work34:30 – The “Finding Nemo” moment AI still hasn’t had36:00 – Scaling a company without losing creativity37:00 – Why “intrepid” might be the most important mindset for modern teamsAbout Laura BurkhauserLaura Burkhauser is the CEO of Descript, one of the most widely used platforms for podcasting, video editing, and content creation. She has held senior product leadership roles at companies including Amazon and Twitter, and is known for her product-first approach to growth.Listen / Watch more episodes:https://www.thatswhaticallmarketing.com/Thanks to our partner on this episode the always on brand tracking dashboard TracksuitIf you enjoyed this, subscribe for more conversations with CMOs, founders, and marketing leaders on how growth actually happens.

Inside Saatchi & Saatchi. Sit down with the CEO of one of the most iconic agencies in advertising, a name that carries both weight and expectation, to understand how CEO Claire Hollands leads for today.This is a conversation about ambition. Not in the abstract, but in how it shows up in the work, in the culture, and in the relationship between agencies and clients.We get into how Saatchi & Saatchi is positioning itself around growth, why creativity still holds commercial power (even if the industry occasionally forgets it), and how agencies are rethinking their value, from billable hours to business outcomes.There’s also a clear view on where things are shifting: the role of AI, the reality of pitching, and why agencies need to be more deliberate about the clients they choose.Running through all of it is leadership, how you make decisions without perfect information, how you build a culture of high challenge and high support, and how you balance legacy with the need to move forward.What you’ll learn:Why agencies need to reposition themselves around growth, not outputsHow creativity still drives commercial performance and where it gets undervaluedWhat actually builds trust between agencies and clientsWhy most pitch processes are flawed and what better looks likeHow to think about agency value, pricing, and remunerationThe difference between growth brands and transformation brands and why it mattersWhat “high challenge, high support” looks like in practiceHow great leaders make decisions without having all the answersWhat AI is changing in agencies and what it isn’tWhy hiring for attitude and curiosity matters more than experienceTimestamps00:03:00 – Finding your people in the industry00:06:00 – Why account management sits at the centre of the agency00:07:00 – Building trust in client relationships00:12:00 – How decisions are really made at senior level00:15:00 – Culture, values, and collective ambition00:19:00 – High challenge, high support: what it means in practice00:23:00 – Managing pressure across career and family00:25:30 – Where the agency world is heading00:29:30 – The evolving agency model00:32:00 – The role and reality of pitching00:33:30 – What needs to change in pitch processes00:37:30 – Hiring for attitude, not just skill00:39:00 – What excites Claire about what’s nextAbout the podcastThat’s What I Call Marketing is a podcast for marketers who care about how brands grow, how advertising works, and how the industry is evolving through conversations with the people shaping it.

In this episode of That’s What I Call Marketing, Conor Byrne speaks with Andrew Tindall, Chief Growth Officer at System1, about his new publication/pdf The Creative Dividend. Built using global Effie case study data and creative testing from over 250,000 respondents, the research explores a simple but uncomfortable truth: most advertising fails to deliver profitable growth. Andrew explains why creativity has been undervalued in modern marketing, why many campaigns generate revenue but not profit, and why the industry’s biggest problem may actually be a lack of creative confidence. The conversation also explores the relationship between emotion, distinctiveness, media investment, pricing power and brand growth and what marketers should actually do differently. If you care about marketing effectiveness, advertising creativity, and long-term brand growth, this is a fascinating deep dive.Topics Covered• Why only 9% of advertising campaigns report profit growth• The concept of creative confidence• What the Creative Dividend actually means• Why distinctiveness beats differentiation• Why advertising cannot create loyalty• The link between emotion and profit• Why many campaigns are designed to fail• The tension between creative quality and media investmentTimestamps05:00 What The Creative Dividend is trying to solve06:32 Why global Effie data matters for marketing effectiveness07:17 Has creativity been undervalued in advertising?08:59 The crisis of confidence in marketing creativity10:16 Why many organisations see creativity as a risk11:21 The role of the client in protecting great ideas12:17 Why businesses avoid creative risk13:00 The shocking statistic: only 9% of campaigns report profit growth14:17 Are marketers measuring the wrong outcomes?15:21 The importance of pricing power in marketing16:45 How creativity enables brands to charge more19:16 What the “Creative Dividend” actually means21:00 The four drivers of creative effectiveness22:00 Why 83% of campaigns are designed to fail23:06 Why great creative fails without media support24:16 The power of long-term creative platforms26:00 Consistency vs freshness in advertising28:46 What surprised Andrew most in the research29:07 Why distinctiveness matters more than differentiation29:48 Why advertising doesn’t create loyalty30:00 Distinctiveness vs emotion: efficiency vs effectiveness31:41 Why emotional advertising drives profit32:44 Why revenue alone isn’t success in marketing34:00 The debate about gated content in marketing research39:00 AI, marketing knowledge and the future of learningLinks MentionedThe Creative Dividend (download the pdf): https://system1group.com/the-creative-dividendTracksuit https://www.gotracksuit.comThat’s What I Call Marketing Podcast https://www.thatswhatIcallmarketing.comGreen Hat Episode (gated content discussion): https://open.spotify.com/episode/72D5zXtNRzzNgdjYytRQdI?si=r2kbvHU3QqWVh6sM6na7wg OR https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/s3-ep39-the-b2b-power-shift-what-marketers-must-do/id1615415427?i=1000672178838

Synthetic Research Explained, Understanding AI-Powered Audience Testing for MarketersWhat is synthetic research and how accurate is it really?In this episode of That’s What I Call Marketing, Conor Byrne sits down with Dr. Ben Warner, former Chief Data Adviser to the UK Prime Minister and co-founder of Electric Twin, to unpack one of the most talked-about developments in modern market research: synthetic audiences.This is not ChatGPT pretending to be a consumer. Synthetic research uses real-world survey data, behavioural modelling and large language models to create AI-driven audience simulations that allow organisations to test messaging, product ideas and strategy at speed before committing real budgets. If you work in marketing, insight, product, strategy or leadership, this episode will challenge how you think about research, risk and decision-making.⏱️ Timestamps00:00 – Introduction to synthetic research02:00 – From quantum physics to behavioural modelling03:35 – Why human behaviour is harder to predict than we think05:17 – The problem with traditional decision-making tools09:02 – What Electric Twin actually does10:00 – What a “synthetic audience” really means13:59 – Testing creative, messaging and propositions in real time15:06 – Accuracy vs traditional survey research17:00 – Real-world use cases across marketing and product19:02 – The danger of asking the “wrong” question23:06 – Democratising customer insight inside organisations25:00 – Where synthetic research fits (and where it doesn’t)27:00 – Innovation vs risk-averse organisations29:09 – The story behind the name “Electric Twin”In this episode, we cover:How synthetic audiences are built from real-world dataWhy traditional surveys can be slow, expensive and restrictiveHow AI allows teams to iterate research questions instantlyThe difference between testing ideas safely and making bold decisions blindlyWhy trust and validation matter in emerging AI toolsWhere synthetic research complements (not replaces) conventional methodsWhy this mattersEvery organisation says it wants to be “customer-centric”.But insight is often expensive, delayed, siloed or underused.Synthetic research introduces a new tool into the decision-making toolkit — one that allows teams to explore, iterate and pressure-test ideas before they go live.Whether you are a CMO defending budget, a product lead developing a proposition, or a strategy team modelling future scenarios, this conversation explores how AI-driven research could reshape how decisions are made.If you found this useful, share it with a colleague and subscribe for more conversations with marketing leaders shaping the future of the industry.🎧 Listen to more episodes of That’s What I Call Marketing 📌 Connect with Conor Byrne for more marketing insight🔗 Learn more about Electric Twin and synthetic audiences

What does your CFO actually want to hear from you?In this episode of That’s What I Call Marketing, Conor Byrne sits down with Michael Kaminsky former analytics leader at Harry’s and Founder & CEO of Recast to unpack the real tension between marketing and finance. After Michael’s Harvard Business Review article on the CMO–CFO relationship circulated widely (and resonated strongly with CFOs and CMOs), this conversation goes deep on:Why marketing forecasts keep missingWhy finance doesn’t trust marketing numbersHow to talk about ROI and risk crediblyThe problem with last-click attributionHow to structure experiments properlyWhat “expected value” really means for marketersWhy brand investment must be framed as capital allocationIf you’re a CMO, Marketing Director, Head of Performance or brand leader trying to build a stronger relationship with your CFO — this episode is essential.⏱️ Chapters 01:02 – Michael’s time at Harry’s: analytics, growth & experimentation 05:00 – The early days of podcast advertising & growth bets 06:15 – False precision in marketing measurement 07:23 – Brand tracking, survey data & real signal 08:42 – The Harvard Business Review article 09:07 – Why CMOs and CFOs feel tension 10:13 – Speaking the language of finance 14:21 – Discounted cash flow & thinking in timelines 15:00 – The credibility killer: marketing marketing 15:32 – Why being willing to be wrong builds trust 18:20 – Talking about risk & expected value 22:18 – Incrementality & structured experimentation 25:05 – Recast: forecasting & bridging marketing and finance 28:28 – The forecasting trap: last-touch attribution 30:19 – Compounding learning & agency transparency 32:00 – Final reflections: marketing as growth co-pilot🔎 Topics CoveredCMO CFO relationshipMarketing finance alignmentMarketing ROIForecasting marketing investmentIncrementality in marketingLast click attribution problemsMedia mix modelling (MMM)Brand investment vs short-term performanceCapital allocation in marketingBuilding trust with financeIf you found this valuable:✔️ Share it with a fellow marketer ✔️ Subscribe for more conversations with leading marketing thinkers ✔️ Leave a review — it helps the show reach more senior marketersCheck out Recast here https://getrecast.com/

What does it really take to move from brand marketer to global growth leader?In this episode Conor Byrne sits down with Orla Mitchell for a candid, commercially grounded conversation about leadership, long-term brand building and earning marketing’s seat at the growth table.Orla’s career spans senior roles at Nestlé, Kerry Foods, and Mars, where she led global food and confectionery portfolios including the transformation of the gum category and the return of Extra to the #1 position in the US. She later returned to Ireland to join WaterWipes, ultimately becoming CEO and helping scale the brand internationally with sharper strategic focus and disciplined portfolio choices.This episode goes far beyond career highlights. It’s about how marketing thinking matures from creative execution to enterprise-level value creation.3:00 – Winning the Marketing Champion Award & what recognition really means4:40 – From accountancy to marketing: finding the discipline that fit6:00 – Cutting her teeth in FMCG at Nestlé9:50 – Being headhunted to Mars & stepping into bigger challenges13:00 – Dealing with disappointment & knowing when to leave15:20 – Long vs short term thinking before it was fashionable17:30 – Entering Mars: business model transformation over “just advertising”19:15 – Business marketer vs creative marketer21:00 – The Ehrenberg-Bass moment: science over opinion24:30 – Creative effectiveness, star systems & why great ads last27:00 – Test & learn done properly (with action standards)31:30 – Global roles & navigating “we’re different” market objections35:30 – Leading the gum category transformation38:20 – Extra’s growth in the US & penetration focus41:00 – Leaving Mars & the WaterWipes opportunity43:00 – Scaling a challenger brand & making tough market choices46:00 – Marketing as growth co-pilot, not support functionIf you lead brands, sit at an executive table, or aspire to do either, this episode is a masterclass in commercially credible marketing leadership.Thanks to Tracksuit for their support of this episode.

Zappi CMO Nataly Kelly joins to talk about the Sizzle, Systems & Sales Impact of The Super Bowl.The Super Bowl is advertising’s biggest stage. $8 million for 30 seconds. Cultural noise at maximum volume. Celebrities everywhere. Music in almost every ad.But once the spectacle fades, one question remains: which ads actually drove impact?In this episode, we unpack the Zappi Super Bowl 2026 report (check it out here) built from testing every ad live with 20,000 American category buyers and benchmarking them against the top 100 performing TV ads in the US.We explore:– Why emotional response alone isn’t enough – The role of purchase likelihood in predicting sales impact – How celebrities can amplify an ad — or bury the brand – Why distinctive brand assets (Budweiser’s Clydesdales, Nerds’ characters) still matter – The Pepsi polar bear debate and what it says about brand memory – How health brands like Wegovy, Hims & Hers and Ro cut through – Why the best Super Bowl ads are part of a system, not a one-night stuntThis conversation goes beyond ranking ads. It looks at what actually moves the needle — and what marketers without Super Bowl budgets can learn from the world’s most expensive media moment. Zappi’s full report is available at zappi.io here.Chapters2:25 – What Zappi Measures 4:07 – How the Super Bowl Ads Were Tested Live 5:00 – Celebrity Usage: Amplifier or Distraction? 8:54 – Brand Recall vs Entertainment 10:15 – Super Bowl Ads as Part of a System 12:38 – Music, Multi-Screening & Attention 13:54 – Health Brands, Outrage & Cultural Relevance 16:12 – Why Budweiser Still Wins with Distinctive Assets 18:34 – Pepsi, Polar Bears & the Coke Asset Debate 20:41 – System Over Sizzle: Campaign vs One Night 23:40 – The Emotional Power of Lays 24:35 – Nerds, Product Demonstration & Penetration 27:00 – What Marketers Without Super Bowl Budgets Should Learn 31:56 – Are Super Bowl Trends Changing? 36:50 – Favourite Ad 38:00 – Why Sales Impact Still Matters Most

Most advertising doesn’t fail because it’s wrong. It fails because it’s dull and dull is expensive.In this episode of That’s What I Call Marketing, Conor Byrne sits down with Adam Morgan and Karen Nelson-Field to unpack the real cost of dull creative and dull media using hard evidence from IPA effectiveness data, System1 testing, and large-scale attention measurement.The conversation moves beyond taste or opinion and into economics: why rational, low-emotion advertising can still “work” but only by wasting millions; why some media environments structurally suppress attention; and why optimisation, procurement pressure, and performance thinking have quietly normalised mediocrity.If you work in brand, media, B2B, finance-led marketing, or any category that tells itself it has to be boring, this episode is a wake-up call.What you’ll learnWhy 50% of ads struggle to beat a cow chewing grass on attention and emotionHow dull creative drives up required spend by millions to achieve the same outcomesWhy CPM is often a cost per meaningless thousandHow attention volume predicts ROI, memory, and effectivenessWhy great creative fails when media doesn’t give it a stageHow risk, responsibility, and “sensible” decisions slowly drain impact from workWhere AI may actually help creativity rather than flatten itThis episode draws directly on the “Cost of Dull” research programme and explains what it means for marketers trying to balance effectiveness, efficiency, and real-world constraints. 02:27 – What do we actually mean by “dull” advertising?03:55 – The cow-chewing-grass test and why half of ads lose06:00 – Attention vs emotion: two ways to measure dullness08:00 – The Cannes “Ennui” experiment and burning money as a signal11:10 – What “dull media” really means (and why it’s misunderstood)13:55 – When great creative is wasted by low-attention environments16:20 – Is dull creative ever the better option?17:24 – Trust, facts, and why rational messaging costs more19:00 – Campaigns vs single ads: where attention is really lost20:00 – Why mix matters more than hero-only thinking21:00 – Global differences: creative vs media effects23:00 – Why B2B marketing is structurally duller and the cost of that26:00 – The “dull eclipse”: performance mindset, optimisation, benchmarks28:20 – Procurement, pricing pressure, and creative erosion31:00 – CPM, wastage, and the illusion of efficiency34:20 – AI, challenger brands, and testing creativity at speed37:55 – Risk vs responsibility: how sensible decisions kill ideas41:00 – What marketers can actually do differently43:45 – Final reflections and where the research goes nextAbout the guestsAdam Morgan is co-founder of Eatbigfish and a leading voice on challenger brands, effectiveness, and commercial creativity.Karen Nelson-Field is Professor of Media Science and one of the world’s foremost researchers on attention, media value, and advertising effectiveness.If you’re trying to explain to a CFO, procurement team, or board why “safe” work keeps underperforming, this episode gives you the language and the evidence to do it properly.Content Mentioned in the Episode: Risk & Responsibility https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuJx2IJjaFwCost of Dull Media Report https://21467338.fs1.hubspotusercontent-ap1.net/hubfs/21467338/COMPANY%20MATERIALS/Cost%20of%20Dull%20Final.pdfCost of Dull Eat Big Fish https://www.eatbigfish.com/thinking/challengers-and-cost-of-dull

François Bazini, CMO of Suntory Beverage & Food Europe is one of the most thoughtful brand CMOs in global FMCGFrançois shares a rare, inside view of what it really means to be a brand steward in organisations like Danone, BCG, PepsiCo and Suntory. From resisting short-term zig-zagging, to building brands that can withstand private label pressure, this conversation goes deep on the realities of modern brand leadership. We explore why marketers must act as brand CEOs, how tension with CFOs can be productive rather than problematic, and why targeting older audiences is one of the most under-exploited growth opportunities in marketing today. François also unpacks the Ribena turnaround, Schweppes’ response to Fever-Tree, and why most advertising testing is misunderstood. This is a wide-ranging, honest discussion about judgment, evidence, culture, and the long game in brand building.Topics include: Brand stewardship vs short-termism, marketing ROI, working with finance, global vs local marketing roles, age targeting myths, private label competition, creative testing, and why some brands endure while others drift.03:25 – Career path: from Danone to consulting and global brand roles04:55 – What BCG teaches marketers about being fact-based07:00 – Brand stewardship and avoiding strategic zig-zagging09:30 – Timeless vs timely brand decisions11:00 – Marketing ROI beyond short-term sales12:30 – Marketers as brand CEOs13:45 – Working with CFOs and productive tension16:00 – Global vs local marketing roles20:00 – Ribena: brand decline and recovery22:30 – Going back to a brand’s peak moment26:00 – The myth of always targeting youth29:00 – Schweppes, Fever-Tree and category disruption31:45 – Targeting over-45s unapologetically34:00 – Media thresholds and focus over fragmentation35:45 – Moving beyond marketing mix modelling38:15 – The limits of advertising testing41:00 – When great ads fail tests but succeed commercially42:20 – Competing with private label43:00 – DAQV: desirability, affordability, quality, visibility