Share

cover art for Shame on You! Should we Embrace Shame?

Principle of Charity

Shame on You! Should we Embrace Shame?

Season 1, Ep. 39

It’s said that the world can be divided into shame based and guilt based cultures, with the west sitting firmly in the guilt side. This is because the west has prioritised this idea of the individual, with our sense of right and wrong a matter between ourself and whatever higher power we ascribe to – whether it's our god, the state laws, or our conscious itself. 

 

In the west, guilt is seen as an appropriate and even productive emotion, with shame as the corrosive cousin. But in shame based cultures, which really make up most of the world, its shame, not guilt, that does the heavy lifting. And given most of us in the west live in rich multicultural communities, it’s important to understand shame if we’re going to understand what motivates the people around us. 


In this conversation, we talk with a leading world expert about the deeply corrosive aspects of shame, and how to release its grip on us. We also speak with a leading psychiatrist who’s written a book in defence of shame, to see what benefits shame can bring. We’ll also open the lens a little wider, looking at how shame is used by conservatives, liberals, but more interestingly by the progressive left, which challenges us to be careful not to shame people’s sexual expressions, weight, or in fact anything that’s seen as an authentic version of oneself. Whilst at the same time, the left has very successfully used public shaming, including through cancel culture, as a way to regulate what can and can’t be said. And finally, we’ll discuss social media as the super-fuel for shame, as it provides us with an almost infinite community within which we seek praise, and fear condemnation.


Guests:

Dr Patti Ashley

Patti Ashley holds a doctor of philosophy degree in psychology from the Union Institute and University, a Master of Education degree in early childhood from Old Dominion University and a Bachelor of Science degree in special education from James Madison University. She is the author of Living in the Shadow of the Too-Good Mother Archetype, Letters to Freedom and Shame-Informed Therapy: Treatment Strategies to overcome Core Shame and Reconstruct the Authentic Self. An international workshop presenter, TEDxspeaker and psychotherapist, she owns and operates Authenticity Architects in Boulder, Colorado and Taos, New Mexico.


Dr Tanveer Ahmed

Tanveer Ahmed is a psychiatrist, author and columnist on social issues for the Australian Financial Review. His books include Fragile Nation about the cultural rise of mental health and In Defence of Shame. He is an adjunct lecturer for the University of New South Wales. He has served on local government, government advisory Boards and as a national representative for the Australian Medical Association. He is based in Sydney, Australia.


~~

 

You can be part of the discussion @PofCharity on Twitter, @PrincipleofCharity on Facebook and @PrincipleofCharityPodcast on Instagram.

 

Your hosts are Lloyd Vogelman and Emile Sherman.

 

Find Lloyd @LloydVogelman on Linked in

 

Find Emile @EmileSherman on Linked In and Twitter.

 

This Podcast is Produced by Jonah Primo and Bronwen Reid

 

Find Jonah at jonahprimo.com or @JonahPrimo on Instagram 

More episodes

View all episodes

  • 50. Is Wisdom Helpful? Pt.2 On the Couch with Krista Tippett

    19:44
    In Principle of Charity on the Couch, Lloyd has an unfiltered conversation with the guests, throws them curveballs, and gets into the personal side of Principle of Charity.Krista Tippett is a Peabody-award winning broadcaster, National Humanities Medalist, and New York Times bestselling author. She created and hosts On Being, which has won the highest honors in broadcast, Internet and podcasting. Her On Being Project is evolving to meet the callings of the post-2020 world — and to accompany the generative people and possibilities within this tender, tumultuous time to be alive. Krista grew up in a small town in Oklahoma, attended Brown University, worked as a young journalist and diplomat in Cold War Berlin, and later received a Master of Divinity from Yale. Her most recent book is Becoming Wise: An Inquiry into the Mystery and Art of Living. Helen Pluckrose is a liberal humanist and political and cultural writer and commentator. Her writing has focused on the evolution of postmodern thought into contemporary Critical Social Justice activism which she regards as counterproductive to the goal of genuine social justice. Helen is best known for participation in the Grievance Studies Affair, co-authoring Cynical Theories and the foundation of the organisation Counterweight to support workers at risk of cancellation for not supporting Critical Social Justice theories. She mostly just wants people to value evidence-based knowledge and consistently liberal ethics.  Your hosts are Lloyd Vogelman and Emile Sherman. This podcast is proud to partner with The Ethics Centre.Find Lloyd @LloydVogelman on Linked inFind Emile @EmileSherman on Linked In and Twitter.This Podcast is Produced by Jonah Primo, Bronwen Reid and Danielle HarveyFind Jonah at jonahprimo.com or @JonahPrimo on InstagramFind Danielle at danielleharvey.com.au
  • 49. Spotlight with Krista Tippett: Is Wisdom Helpful?

    30:50
    On this special Spotlight episode the US broadcaster/podcaster/writer Krista Tippett joins Emile and Lloyd to discuss wisdom and meaning. Krista’s On Being radio show and podcast has enriched the lives of its many millions of listeners over decades as has her best-selling book Becoming Wise: An Inquiry into the Mystery and Art of LivingAs host Emile Sherman said of Krista, “Our aim on the podcast is to have true expert guests, guests who are often scholars, academics, or advocates steeped in the knowledge of a particular issue and even our discussions around the principle of charity, about how to talk with others whose views we disagree with, are often evidence based. We draw on the latest research in psychology and other disciplines to teach us how to most effectively engage with others, to seek the truth rather than win the fight. “In the extraordinary Krista Tippett we have a guest who’s less interested in knowledge, than in mystery, less focused on truth than on meaning and less obsessed with reason than with resonance.It’s a privilege to see how her worldview can be applied to the principle of charity, to the way we approach, listen to and interact with others.”Krista Tippett is a Peabody-award winning broadcaster, National Humanities Medalist, and New York Times bestselling author. She created and hosts On Being, which has won the highest honors in broadcast, Internet and podcasting. Her On Being Project is evolving to meet the callings of the post-2020 world — and to accompany the generative people and possibilities within this tender, tumultuous time to be alive. Krista grew up in a small town in Oklahoma, attended Brown University, worked as a young journalist and diplomat in Cold War Berlin, and later received a Master of Divinity from Yale. Her most recent book is Becoming Wise: An Inquiry into the Mystery and Art of Living.Your hosts are Lloyd Vogelman and Emile Sherman. This podcast is proud to partner with The Ethics Centre.Find Lloyd @LloydVogelman on Linked inFind Emile @EmileSherman on Linked In and Twitter.This Podcast is Produced by Jonah Primo, Bronwen Reid and Danielle HarveyFind Jonah at jonahprimo.com or @JonahPrimo on InstagramFind Danielle at danielleharvey.com.au
  • 48. Should We Aim To Be Thin? Pt.2 On the Couch.

    44:08
    In Principle of Charity on the Couch, Lloyd has an unfiltered conversation with the guests, throws them curveballs, and gets into the personal side of Principle of Charity.Guests Tigress Osborn (she/her) is a fat rights advocate and Executive Director of the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance (NAAFA), the world’s oldest documented organization working towards Equality at Every Size. She is a co-founding leader of the Campaign for Size Freedom, which supports passing legislation to outlaw size discrimination. Tigress is a two-time women's college graduate with degrees in Africana Studies (Smith) and English (Mills). She is an intersectional feminist teacher and writer whose professional background as a youth empowerment leader and DEI educator has informed her fat liberation activism since 2008. She has been featured in USA Today, Newsweek, and the cover of the Smith College Alumnae Quarterly; heard on BBC AntiSocial, Burnt Toast, and NPR; and seen on ABC News, NewsNation and Free Speech TV’s Feminism Today. Helen Pluckrose is a liberal humanist and political and cultural writer and commentator. Her writing has focused on the evolution of postmodern thought into contemporary Critical Social Justice activism which she regards as counterproductive to the goal of genuine social justice. Helen is best known for participation in the Grievance Studies Affair, co-authoring Cynical Theories and the foundation of the organisation Counterweight to support workers at risk of cancellation for not supporting Critical Social Justice theories. She mostly just wants people to value evidence-based knowledge and consistently liberal ethics.  Your hosts are Lloyd Vogelman and Emile Sherman. This podcast is proud to partner with The Ethics Centre.Find Lloyd @LloydVogelman on Linked inFind Emile @EmileSherman on Linked In and Twitter.This Podcast is Produced by Jonah Primo, Bronwen Reid and Danielle HarveyFind Jonah at jonahprimo.com or @JonahPrimo on InstagramFind Danielle at danielleharvey.com.au
  • 47. Should We Aim To Be Thin?

    59:11
    We live in a culture that is obsessed by weight. About a third of adult women in the US are on a diet at any given time, and a fifth of men. Those who aren’t dieting are thinking about dieting, with well over half of all adults actively wanting to lose weight, with men only slightly trailing women.  To feed the obsession on weight, or to help people manage their weight, depending on the way one looks at things, there is a global weight loss and management industry that is expected to surpass US$405 billion by 2030. So what is going on here? Why is there a near pervasive belief that it’s good to be thin and bad to be fat.  In this episode we explore some of the reasons why fat has come to signify so much, looking at issues like health, shame, self-discipline, beauty and more.  Guests Tigress Osborn (she/her) is a fat rights advocate and Executive Director of the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance (NAAFA), the world’s oldest documented organization working towards Equality at Every Size. She is a co-founding leader of the Campaign for Size Freedom, which supports passing legislation to outlaw size discrimination. Tigress is a two-time women's college graduate with degrees in Africana Studies (Smith) and English (Mills). She is an intersectional feminist teacher and writer whose professional background as a youth empowerment leader and DEI educator has informed her fat liberation activism since 2008. She has been featured in USA Today, Newsweek, and the cover of the Smith College Alumnae Quarterly; heard on BBC AntiSocial, Burnt Toast, and NPR; and seen on ABC News, NewsNation and Free Speech TV’s Feminism Today. Helen Pluckrose is a liberal humanist and political and cultural writer and commentator. Her writing has focused on the evolution of postmodern thought into contemporary Critical Social Justice activism which she regards as counterproductive to the goal of genuine social justice. Helen is best known for participation in the Grievance Studies Affair, co-authoring Cynical Theories and the foundation of the organisation Counterweight to support workers at risk of cancellation for not supporting Critical Social Justice theories. She mostly just wants people to value evidence-based knowledge and consistently liberal ethics.  Your hosts are Lloyd Vogelman and Emile Sherman. This podcast is proud to partner with The Ethics Centre.Find Lloyd @LloydVogelman on Linked inFind Emile @EmileSherman on Linked In and Twitter.This Podcast is Produced by Jonah Primo, Bronwen Reid and Danielle HarveyFind Jonah at jonahprimo.com or @JonahPrimo on InstagramFind Danielle at danielleharvey.com.au
  • 46. The Basics of Bad Faith, Pt.2 On the Couch.

    35:12
    In Principle of Charity on the Couch, Lloyd has an unfiltered conversation with the guests, throws them curveballs, and gets into the personal side of Principle of Charity.Tim DeanTim Dean is Senior Philosopher at The Ethics Centre, where he works to promote ethics in public and professional spheres. He has a Doctorate in philosophy from the University of New South Wales on the evolution of human nature and specialises in ethics, critical thinking and public philosophy. He is an Honorary Associate at the University of Sydney and the author of How We Became Human: And Why We Need to Change published by Pan Macmillan. Tim received the Australasian Association of Philosophy Media Professionals’ Award for his work on philosophy in public. He has delivered keynotes and workshops across Australia and the Asia Pacific for the likes of TEDx, Facebook, Commonwealth Bank, Aesop, Clayton Utz, the Art Gallery of NSW, the Sydney Opera House and the University of Sydney. Danielle HarveyDanielle Harvey is a curator, creative producer and director. Danielle works across festivals, live performance, talks, installation and digital spaces, creating layered programs that connect deeply with audiences. She is currently Festival Director of the infamous FESTIVAL OF DANGEROUS IDEAS and Director of the line-blurring theatrical events company Dancing Giant Productions. Danielle was creator of BINGEFEST (a festival celebrating digital culture) and ANTIDOTE (a festival of ideas and action), and co-creator of ALL ABOUT WOMEN (a feminist festival). She was the co-creator and originating director of the award-winning immersive experience A MIDNIGHT VISIT. Her latest immersive work ETERNITYLAND created a theatrical ‘playground’ to rave reviews. Past roles include Head of Contemporary Performance at Sydney Opera House, the Festival Executive Producer of the Sydney Gay & Lesbian Mardi Gras and the Director of Engagement for The Ethics Centre.Your hosts are Lloyd Vogelman and Emile Sherman. This podcast is proud to partner with The Ethics Centre.Find Lloyd @LloydVogelman on Linked inFind Emile @EmileSherman on Linked In and Twitter.This Podcast is Produced by Jonah Primo and Danielle HarveyFind Jonah at jonahprimo.com or @JonahPrimo on Instagram Find Danielle at danielleharvey.com.au
  • 45. The Basics of Bad Faith

    44:16
    In this episode we go back to basics and look at the practical ways of communicating the principle of charity and how certain behaviours over time have been developed for social cohesion, even when we don’t all agree. With our special guests –  moral philosopher Dr Tim Dean and festival director Danielle Harvey – we have a wide-ranging discussion on what communicating in good faith looks like, what bad faith is, and how to navigate tricky topics. We discuss ways to have hard conversations – be that in person, in events, in podcasts or even in lecture theatres. This takes us to the role of morality, behavioural evolution, and outrage. What do we have in our toolkit that we can use to solve the problems of how to live together peacefully? And just how do you communicate your view or knowledge in a way that can be understood while inviting challenge in a respectful manner? This episode introduces our new partnership with The Ethics Centre, a not for profit organisation who works to bring ethics to the centre of everyday life. We have joined forces, aligned by an intent to bring curiosity and generosity to conversations about the tough topics in our world.  Dr Tim Dean is the senior philosopher at The Ethics Centre. We introduce Danielle Harvey, our new podcast producer who is also festival director of the Festival of Dangerous Ideas, which is presented by The Ethics Centre. Tim DeanTim Dean is Senior Philosopher at The Ethics Centre, where he works to promote ethics in public and professional spheres. He has a Doctorate in philosophy from the University of New South Wales on the evolution of human nature and specialises in ethics, critical thinking and public philosophy. He is an Honorary Associate at the University of Sydney and the author of How We Became Human: And Why We Need to Change published by Pan Macmillan. Tim received the Australasian Association of Philosophy Media Professionals’ Award for his work on philosophy in public. He has delivered keynotes and workshops across Australia and the Asia Pacific for the likes of TEDx, Facebook, Commonwealth Bank, Aesop, Clayton Utz, the Art Gallery of NSW, the Sydney Opera House and the University of Sydney. Danielle HarveyDanielle Harvey is a curator, creative producer and director. Danielle works across festivals, live performance, talks, installation and digital spaces, creating layered programs that connect deeply with audiences. She is currently Festival Director of the infamous FESTIVAL OF DANGEROUS IDEAS and Director of the line-blurring theatrical events company Dancing Giant Productions. Danielle was creator of BINGEFEST (a festival celebrating digital culture) and ANTIDOTE (a festival of ideas and action), and co-creator of ALL ABOUT WOMEN (a feminist festival). She was the co-creator and originating director of the award-winning immersive experience A MIDNIGHT VISIT. Her latest immersive work ETERNITYLAND created a theatrical ‘playground’ to rave reviews. Past roles include Head of Contemporary Performance at Sydney Opera House, the Festival Executive Producer of the Sydney Gay & Lesbian Mardi Gras and the Director of Engagement for The Ethics Centre.Your hosts are Lloyd Vogelman and Emile Sherman. This podcast is proud to partner with The Ethics Centre.Find Lloyd @LloydVogelman on Linked inFind Emile @EmileSherman on Linked In and Twitter.This Podcast is Produced by Jonah Primo and Danielle HarveyFind Jonah at jonahprimo.com or @JonahPrimo on Instagram Find Danielle at danielleharvey.com.au
  • 44. Can AI Create Art? Pt. 2 On the Couch

    36:00
    With guests, Ahmed Elgammal and Michael SacasasIn Principle of Charity on the Couch, Lloyd has an unfiltered conversation with the guest, throws them curveballs, and gets into the personal side of Principle of Charity.   ~~ You can be part of the discussion @PofCharity on Twitter, @PrincipleofCharity on Facebook and @PrincipleofCharityPodcast on Instagram. Your hosts are Lloyd Vogelman and Emile Sherman. Find Lloyd @LloydVogelman on Linked in Find Emile @EmileSherman on Linked In and Twitter. This Podcast is Produced by Jonah Primo and Bronwen Reid Find Jonah at jonahprimo.com & @JonahPrimo on Instagram. 
  • 43. Can AI create Art?

    51:56
    In 2022, an AI generated work of art won a US state art competition. The artist used Midjourney, one of the popular AI systems that also include Dall-E and Stable Diffusion. They are trained on the millions of images scattered through the internet, using a deep learning program called a ‘generative adversarial network’, or GAN for short. It works by taking in text prompts, where you type in what you want the artwork to look like, and the AI then draws on the huge database of artworks, to generate a new work that conforms to the prompts.  But to create a great AI work, it’s not as simple as typing ‘create some great art’. The artist who won that competition put in lengthy complex prompts, working up hundreds of iterations before he arrived at the final work.  So, is this really art?  When we see an AI art creation, it genuinely feels ‘creative’. But is there something humans do when we create which is qualitatively different to AI? Like AI in every domain it has touched, AI art is challenging us to rethink our categories and even to ask us to question what it means to be human.Our guests for this conversation are both experts in the intersection between art and technology.  Professor Ahmed Elgammal has actually constructed AI systems that have created artworks that are so good, a majority of people believe they are truly original human creations. Michael Sacasas,on the other hand, sees AI art as missing an essential ingredient, no matter how good its style is. It’ll never convey the deep connection between artist and viewer that we all crave.GuestsAhmed ElgammalDr. Ahmed Elgammal is a professor at the Department of Computer Science and an Executive Council Faculty at the Center for Cognitive Science at Rutgers University. He is the founder and director of the Art and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory at Rutgers. He is also the founder and CEO of Playform AI, a platform that is dedicated to give artist access to the latest generative AI tech. In 2017, he developed AICAN, an autonomous AI artist and collaborative creative partner, which was acclaimed in an Artsy editorial as “the biggest artistic achievement of the year.” In 2021, he led the AI team that completed Beethoven’s 10th symphony, which received worldwide media coverage. He received M.Sc. and Ph.D. degrees in computer science from the University of Maryland, College Park.Michael SacasasMichael writes The Convivial Society, a popular newsletter on technology, culture, and the moral life.  Michael has written for The New Atlantis, Comment, Plough, The New Inquiry, Real Life Magazine, Mere Orthodoxy, The American, and Second Nature Journal. His work has also been featured in The Atlantic, Vox, and the New York Times. He is the Executive Director, Christian Study Centre in Florida, and earned his MA in Theological Studies from Reformed Theological Seminary in 2002. He was later a doctoral candidate at the University of Central Florida studying the relationship between technology and society with a focus on the work of Hannah Arendt.  He is an Associate Fellow in Ethics and Culture at the Greystone Theological Institute.Your hosts are Lloyd Vogelman and Emile Sherman. Find Lloyd @LloydVogelman on Linked in Find Emile @EmileSherman on Linked In and Twitter. This Podcast is Produced by Jonah Primo and Bronwen Reid Find Jonah at jonahprimo.com or @JonahPrimo on Instagram 
  • 42. Christianity Vs Islam Pt.2 On the Couch

    34:01
    With guests, Professor Mohamad Abdalla and Professor Robyn HornerIn Principle of Charity on the Couch, Lloyd has an unfiltered conversation with the guest, throws them curveballs, and gets into the personal side of Principle of Charity.   ~~ You can be part of the discussion @PofCharity on Twitter, @PrincipleofCharity on Facebook and @PrincipleofCharityPodcast on Instagram. Your hosts are Lloyd Vogelman and Emile Sherman. Find Lloyd @LloydVogelman on Linked in Find Emile @EmileSherman on Linked In and Twitter. This Podcast is Produced by Jonah Primo and Bronwen Reid Find Jonah at jonahprimo.com & @JonahPrimo on Instagram.