Music Career Therapy

What does great artist management actually look like once you strip away the plaques, hype, and big promises? In this episode of Music Career Therapy, Michael Winger talks with Wayne Martin of M3 about what it really takes to build a sustainable music career. Drawing on decades of experience across major labels, independent labels, licensing, intellectual property, and artist management, Wayne shares a people-first philosophy built on mindset, trust, communication, and patience.Wayne explains that mindset is far more than positive thinking. It is the ability to reset, refocus, and keep moving when life or career setbacks hit hard. That belief shapes the entire way he works with artists, producers, and partners. At M3, relationships come first, and success is built through strong foundations rather than quick wins or flashy distractions.One of the most compelling parts of the conversation is Wayne’s refusal to rush into management deals. Instead of signing artists quickly, he spends months getting to know them, learning how they communicate, and seeing whether the relationship can hold up under pressure. His view is simple: trust and communication take time, and without them, even promising partnerships can crack the moment something goes sideways.The episode also gets into Wayne’s approach to strategy. He does not believe in rigid long-term plans that are stale the second they are written. Instead, he works with artists through flexible quarterly goals, weekly calls, and a major yearly objective chosen by the artist. His role is part guide, part reality-check, helping artists focus on the next right move while keeping expectations honest and grounded.Mental health is another major theme. Wayne sees it as one of the most ignored parts of building a music career and one of the biggest reasons artists can unravel. He checks in with clients as people first, asks direct questions, and stays alert to what may be happening under the surface. He also makes a sharp point: the very qualities that fuel an artist’s success, such as perfectionism or relentless drive, can also become the things that hurt them.The conversation also tackles fame and why Wayne says he would not wish it on anyone without preparation. Fame may look glamorous, but it can also bring pressure, exposure, exploitation, and isolation. Artists often chase validation without seeing the cost that can come with being known by everyone, including people who do not have good intentions. Wayne believes part of management is helping artists prepare for that reality and stay grounded as their visibility grows.Throughout the episode, Wayne keeps coming back to one core idea: people over profit. The right manager is not just the first person who says yes. The right manager is someone who tells the truth, earns trust over time, knows when to bring in specialists, and helps build a career that can actually last.

What does it take to build a music company, spot real talent, and keep your values intact in an industry built on attention? In this episode of Music Career Therapy, Michael Winger talks with Benton James, co-CEO of Icons and Giants, about artist development, publishing, branding, relationships, and the character it takes to last in the music business.Benton shares how Icons and Giants was born during COVID, when he and longtime collaborator Billy Mann decided to build something together in the middle of lockdown. What came out of that moment was a company rooted in vision, instinct, and artist partnership rather than corporate sprawl. Benton explains that while titles and job descriptions can sound flashy, the real work is much simpler and much harder: find talent worth believing in, then figure out how to get the world to pay attention.Throughout the conversation, Benton keeps coming back to the value of relationships. Whether he is talking about discovering Black Bach, helping producer Kato on the Track grow his business, or developing songwriters and producers in publishing, the common thread is trust, character, and long-term connection. For Benton, talent matters, but so do drive, authenticity, and whether someone is actually good to work with. He is wary of rushing into business and prefers to get to know people before locking into formal deals.The episode also gets into how Benton thinks about artist development in a crowded attention economy. He talks about why timing matters, why unique stories matter, and why artists need more than just ambition. They need perspective, patience, and a willingness to keep showing up. He also breaks down how branding partnerships can work when they are rooted in authenticity, and why artists need to know who they are before they start attaching themselves to companies, campaigns, or bigger opportunities.On the publishing side, Benton gives a grounded look at how the business actually works. He explains that many artists misunderstand publishing income and overestimate how quickly money arrives. Real publishing success usually comes from sustained relationships, repeated sessions, strong records, and years of work. He points to producers he has worked with, like Trey Trax and Super Mario, as examples of people who succeeded by staying in the game, building trust with artists, and developing real craft over time.What makes this conversation hit harder is Benton’s personal philosophy. He speaks candidly about character, gratitude, discipline, and legacy, and about how his family history shaped the way he sees his work. He talks about trying to treat people well, staying grounded, and remembering that a meaningful career is built by making people feel something, not by chasing hacks or empty shortcuts.His advice to artists is one of the strongest takeaways in the episode: move people. In a world flooded with content, the artists who last are the ones who tell the truth, make people feel something real, and create work with depth, excellence, and soul.

What happens when you spend a decade chasing the dream, reach the top, and then lose the life you built around it? In this episode of Music Career Therapy, Michael Winger talks with Ryan Dusick, founding member and former drummer of Maroon 5, about ambition, burnout, anxiety, addiction, recovery, and building a new identity after massive success. Ryan shares the real story behind Maroon 5’s rise, from high school beginnings as Kara’s Flowers to being dropped after their first record deal, then rebuilding over years before finally breaking through with Songs About Jane. What looked like overnight success was actually ten years of hard work, reinvention, and stubborn persistence. He also opens up about the cost of that success. After hundreds of shows, nonstop travel, endless promo, and the pressure of performing at the highest level, Ryan found himself physically and emotionally depleted. As someone already dealing with anxiety, perfectionism, and obsessive tendencies, the pace of the road eventually pushed him past his limit. One of the most useful parts of the conversation is Ryan’s take on anxiety. He explains that anxiety is not always the enemy. Sometimes it is the body’s own performance enhancer. The real work is learning how to work with that energy instead of being run over by it. He talks about mindfulness, self-awareness, balance, and how artists can start to tell the difference between fear and excitement. Ryan also reflects on friendship, band chemistry, and the heartbreak of leaving Maroon 5. What he misses most is not the fame. It is the bond, the humor, and the creative spark he shared with his closest friends. He looks back with honesty about what went wrong and how better communication might have changed some of it. The episode then moves into Ryan’s second act. After years of depression, anxiety, and alcoholism, he entered recovery in 2016, which led him into service, graduate school, and a new career as a therapist. Now he works with clients dealing with anxiety, trauma, depression, and addiction, bringing both training and lived experience to the work. This episode is a strong reminder that success does not protect anyone from struggle, and that losing one version of your life does not mean the story is over. Ryan’s story offers something better than nostalgia. It offers proof that healing, purpose, and hope can still show up after the crash. 

In this episode, I talk with Suzanne Koga, manager for legendary artist and 4x GRAMMY Winner Roberta Flack. Roberta taught Suzanne the ropes of the music business including live performance contracts, music production, and working with labels and studios in a trial-by-fire environment. Roberta became her mentor and they have now worked together for 25 years. In addition to managing Roberta, Suzanne works with other legacy artists such as Patti Austin, Valerie Simpson, and Lisa Fisher and also manages the career of two highly esteemed Louisiana artists: New Orleans gospel legend Davell Crawford, and the singer / songwriter Wendy Colonna. Suzanne stresses the importance of music artists diversifying their revenue streams and the need to cultivate friendships, mentors, and relationships in the music industry.Music Career Therapy was recorded in 2023 and is being released as a completed first season. Some references reflect the time of recording. A few individuals mentioned in these conversations have since passed away. We’re grateful for their work and legacy, and we’re honored to share these episodes in that spirit.

In this episode, I talk with Shannon Herber, Managing Director of A0k1verse, Steve Aoki's NFT project, where she works in the intersection of music and tech. She shares her journey in the music industry, as a manager, a publicist for Universal Music Group, a tour manager for Moby and working as Head of Pop and Dance / Electronic music for the Awards department at the GRAMMYs®. She stresses the importance of having great mentors, gives us an overview of the world of NFT's, and discusses the mental health impact of life on tour.(1:30) - Shannon’s Story*(6:08) - Tips for women in tour management(13:22) - Dance/Electronic music artists and their success*(17: 30) - Shannon’s Mentors(19:43) - The harsh reality of stardom(20:27) - Stories of tour life(25:15) - Shannon’s work with the A0K1VERSE and how the NFTs work(35:57) - surprising artist failure rate(38:05) - How NFTs can be lucrative (42:48) - Michael’s crazy story about Kurt Cobain*(44:30) - Shannons final words of wisdom to new and upcoming artists

In this episode, I talk with Dawn Barger, former Artist Manager for The National, Decemberists, Walkmen, Bryce Dessner, and Perfume Genius. This episode is filled with practical advice including merchandise, building a team, community and more. We talk about how she met The National and built their team to become the massive indie success they are today. She follows a strategic approach, building a roadmap of success for her artists and follows a practice of persistence: hundreds of small victories along the way create a successful career. We also talk about her new venture, a tie-dye and merch business, treating merch like a fashion line to build a cult around an artist's brand.

On this episode, I chat with Dion Liverpool, artist manager for Phife Dawg and A Tribe Called Quest. We talk about his time as a manager working with A Tribe Called Quest. Phife past away unexpectedly in 2016, and Dion picked up the reigns of an unfinished solo album working as Executive Producer on the posthumous release. Dion also shares his story of producing Phife's memorial at the Apollo with Queen Latifah and Kanye in attendance while still mourning the loss of his close friend and client.(1:45) - Meeting A Tribe Called Quest (3:11) - building a vibe with Phife Dawg(5:00) - Tribe’s complex management structure (7:05) - Chaos ensuing (9:47) - Not rocking the managerial boat (11:11) - Knowing when to speak up and advocate for your artist and when not to(14:27) - Navigating Phife’s passing as a friend and manager, and executive producing his posthumous album(17:06) - producing Phife Dawg’s memorial at the Apollo Theatre (22:15) - tour managing with Dwele and mentoring younger artists (23:45) - initial career advice for young artists(26:02) - Music artists who are also entreprenuers and viewing yourself as a brand(27:00) - Dion’s experience as a DJ and what makes him successful(29:22) - The importance of a human relationship with fans with AI on the way

Show notes:In this episode I interview Dan Workman, a former recording engineer and record producer who has worked with Beyonce, Destiny's Child, ZZ Top, and many others. He is now a licensed psychotherapist specializing in working with creatives. Dan and I discuss the mental health challenges that musicians experience including ADHD and autism, and how it can impact an artist's communication and creativity.(1:08) - Artists Dan has worked with: (Destiny’s Child, ZZ Top, etc.)(2:13) - Dan’s switch from producer/engineer to licensed psychotherapist (3:25) - Psychology of producing in the studio(4:42) - Why Dan chose to help creatives with his new career (6:23) - How Dan helps clients with creative problems that stem from their mental health(8:00) - Common types of mental health challenges for music artists (ADHD, Autism)(12:00) - Discovering neurodiversity in adults(14:30) - How to help an artist with a new neurodiversity diagnosis(18:30) - struggles with producing yourself and the temptation  (19:15) - how trauma affects artists (22:50) - resources for artists who need therapy    (28:05) - ways that artists can find relief for anxiety and depression(32:23) - Status of psychedelics in mental health professionals  (37:20) - Dan’s "Bootylicious" moment with Destiny's Child and Beyoncé