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This Sustainable Life
266: Thoughts on my MAGA interview
My notes I read from for this post:
Yesterday I posted my interview on a site that strongly supports Donald Trump. I do not. Yet I described it as one of my favorite interviews. What gives?
The conversation prompted thoughts on environment and politics. Read my post on the conversation and listen to the conversation for context. For more context, the guy who hosted, Rob, his profile says "Vote Red To Save America!" on Twitter, where he describes himself as "The Conservative Black Cowboy." In videos, he wears a Make America Great Again hat. Doing these things openly in New York City may only mean you're looking for a response, but I think it also means genuine, strong feelings.
I read that he genuinely and authentically wanted to know about me, my history, and my actions -- not to attack or criticize but because he saw in me something he hadn't before but that he liked. His site criticized others as dupes for scientists looking to save their money among other what I would call attacks on climate activists, but he seemed to hold back from saying there were no environmental problems.
I read that he was looking for a voice and story worth listening to. I may have misread him. As one person, he doesn't represent the right or Trump supporters in general, but I don't think I misread that a lot of people like him would welcome
How unwelcome I felt in a blazer and collared shirt at the climate march. I suspect I impacted the environment less than most but felt unwelcome until I spoke with a friend. I don't remember the details and may have misread so can't say for sure. Even so, I consider people dressed for business the ones the crowd should have felt most comfortable since they influence so much that pollutes. Instead, it felt like there was a leftist political machine that seized on an issue to empower themselves and beat the others. That view treats others as if they want to pollute as primary goal. But no one wants to pollute as primary goal. Everyone on the left I've met pollutes more than I do. Should I conclude they pollute as a primary goal? No, they haven't figured out how to reduce their pollution yet so they keep polluting. In the meantime, they enrich themselves at the expense of others helpless to defend themselves. Just like people on the right.
If I say people on the left don't care, they would say they do and something along the lines that you have to break some eggs to make an omelet and I just don't understand them. Were I to keep pushing, they'd get angry, say I don't understand them, and disengage. My ability to influence or lead them would drop through the floor.
I wouldn't understand that they do care. They do want clean air, land, and water. If I understand that they care and find ways to help, they'll follow, which I do on my podcast in hundreds of conversations.
Well, people on the left say people on the right don't care, but don't afford that they would say they do and something along the lines that you have to break some eggs to make an omelet. People on the right conclude those on the left just don't understand them. Those on the left keep pushing, getting everyone else angry, to say I don't understand them, and disengage. Their ability to influence or lead drops through the floor.
Centuries of systems and beliefs make it difficult to live sustainably, as do uncertainties and risks. Plus our population makes it impossible, as far as I can tell, for humans to live sustainably. We all want to act. The most anyone can do is as much as we can. I find the most effective way to help people do as much as they can is through listening, understanding, and supporting.
Frankly, I suspect that when the right turns their ship around and embraces environmental action, which will happen faster the more the left stops treating it as a political weapon, they wouldn't surprise me if they achieved more.
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863. 863: Robert Parkinson: Tyrants and Rogues: Understanding the Declaration of Independence
01:27:56||Ep. 863I can't help but copy from my blog post on finishing reading Robert's book. It describes what to expect from the first half of our conversation and his book. The second half of our conversation relates the revolutionary era and leadership today applied to a situation that is far closer to their situation then than most people see. We can learn from them.It's tempting to think of our impact on the environment as an issue of technology, legislation, and stewardship. It's about liberty, freedom, equality, democracy, and security, personal and national, which means enforcing the Constitution that Robert's book conveys the foundation for.Here's my comments on his book:Wow, I’ve been learning a lot about the revolution, but didn’t realize how much challenge the colonists faced, nor did I learn about the people on the British side.I knew about the big events and interactions that make the history books like the Stamp Tax, Coercive Acts, Boston Massacre, Lexington and Concord, and the ones you know about. I didn’t know about events like the Gaspée affair, the burning of Falmouth, Gwynn’s Island, and all the British aristocracy and military acting. I had only learned about people like Hutchinson, Gage, Dartmouth, and so on as caricatures, not real people. I didn’t know what motivated them.Parkinson points out that as much as we value the timeless words of the start and end of the Declaration of Independence, the rebels and patriots acted on the 27 grievances. I’ve read them before and could pick up some of the meaning behind them, but knew little to no detail. This book recounts what all the colonists knew intimately.Before this book, I had wondered why farmers risked their lives for independence. Sure, they didn’t want to be taxed without representation or imperial soldiers quartered in their homes, but were those things worth dying for? From what I knew before this book, the offenses seemed problematic but something seemed missing. I learned there were far more incidents, many more deadly, and more people involved than I knew of before, yet they drove independence and the revolution.His writing ties many pieces together, so I kept finding names and places affecting each other and being affected by each other. The book read like a tapestry with a rhythm throughout the book. The head of King George from the statue on Bowling Green starts the book and reappears at the end. The boats and people using them going to and from Gwynn’s Island had me going forward and backward like I was reading a mystery novel or a Christopher Nolan movie. The numbers 42, 45, 88, and 92 recur (two refer to years of British revolutions, 1642 and 1688; one is the edition of a publication, 45; and the other is the number of votes supporting a Circular Letter in support of union, 92).Finally, each incident tied back to Jefferson, Franklin, the three other editors, and the congress learning about them, figuring out what to make of them, writing them, editing them, and sending the Declaration to the colonies.Robert's faculty page at SUNY Binghamton
862. 862: Andrew Levy: A role model for today: Robert Carter III freed more slaves than any other American
01:05:32||Ep. 862Regular readers of my blog know how important Robert Carter III has become to me as a role model. He inspires me. I believe this episode will inspire many of you.If you don't know who he is, you're in luck. Here is a post of mine with links to many resources on him: Resources on Robert Carter III. Probably the top thing to know about him is that he is the American who freed the most number of slaves before the thirteenth amendment.Actually, you're in better luck because the first two resources in that post are by today's guest, Andrew Levy. In this episode we talk about Carter, slavery, slave culture, changing culture, his relevance to today, his relevance to my work, and more. It was a pleasure to speak with the person most knowledgeable about him.Andrew shares more than knowledge. For example, he's thought about Carter and today. He asks why we don't remember him more and what that burying says about us.The Anti-Jefferson: Why Robert Carter III Freed His Slaves (And Why We Couldn’t Care Less), by Andrew Levy: This piece was a journal article in the spring 2001 issue of The American Scholar.The First Emancipator: Slavery, Religion, and the Quiet Revolution of Robert Carter, Andrew Levy’s bookI can't recommend these works enough for two reasons: First, Carter exhibits values and actions we can learn from. Second, Andrew covers the man from many angles, all useful. Plus his writing is engaging and readable.
861. 861: Cara Judea Alhadeff, part 1: Actually acting, the joys we feel, and the friction we face
01:02:07||Ep. 861A mutual friend introduced Cara and me. He knew we both were doing our best to live by our values in avoiding hurting others through pollution and depletion.On the face of it, our living situations look different. Her family converted a bus into a home. I disconnected my apartment from the electric grid. We share plenty more in the conversation.Our motivations are similar, which it didn't take us long to bond over. We also face similar misunderstanding and friction from society, especially people who purport to share our values of not hurting people (or wildlife) without consent. Also, people confuse themselves into thinking that because we do what we do, we don't do anything else.More importantly, we also discovered similar joys, rewards, and ways to keep acting.In this conversation, we talk about the joys and challenges of living by our values in a culture that claims to share those values but often rewards behavior that violates them. I don't get to talk to many people with similar situations so it was very refreshing. Feeling understood feels great. I hope you pick up on it.I hope you'll join us too.Cara's homepageHer intersectional nonprofit: Radical Art in ActionHer family's eco-art converted school bus home, using 100% reclaimed materials: The Love Bus: Beauty & Waste In the Face of Climate Crisis (youtube.com), creative, affordable housingS.O.U.L. (Shared Opportunity Used Local) Commons that supports mutual aid economies and gift economies through the local free store she and her partner created for their communityHer book, mentioned in our conversation: Zazu Dreams: Between the Scarab and the Dung Beetle, A Cautionary Fable for the Anthropocene Era: Her cross-cultural, climate justice-through-alternative economies (includes a traveling exhibition and animated film adaptation)
860. 860: Christopher Ryan, part 1: Civilized to Death
01:34:27||Ep. 860The predominant responses to the idea of polluting and depleting less include fears of reverting to the Stone Age, losing civilization, being invaded by aggressive opponents, dying at 30, dying from small cuts, and reverting to a past viewed as worse than today.My upcoming book describes why we feel those fears and why what we fear losing is exactly what we can expect to get more of. A key part of that pattern is that all those fears are false, based on misunderstanding humanity's past.Christopher Ryan's latest book, Civilized to Death, is the clearest, most comprehensive single work describing the past accurately. I spent years researching, learning from countless sources. The results were conclusive, but difficult to communicate. What could I say, "Read these dozens of academic papers and books and watch all these documentaries"?Chris researched more and compiled it more clearly, concisely, and readably than I could have dreamed to. Now I can say, "Read Civilized to Death."I mean it: Read Civilized to Death.Our conversation covers the highlights. It will help you see why you believe legitimizing myths fear changes that when you do them you will only wish you had done them earlier. Things about yourself, humanity, culture, and life will make sense that never did before.Chris's home pageHis books, including Civilized to Death
859. 859: Jack El-Hai: The Nazi, the Psychiatrist, Nuremberg, and Why to Find Humanity in Those We Call Monsters
55:04||Ep. 859How do you make sense of an entire society or nation violating its values? Consider Germany in the 1930s, in which a whole nation seemed to embrace Nazism.It's tempting to say they're all monsters, but how could over 50 million people change in a few years? Not genetics. They must have been no more or less human in 1940 as 1920.It's tempting to say that monsters took over and changed them. Many people thought so. At the end of World War II, a psychiatrist, Douglas Kelley, was sent to evaluate the highest level Nazis who had been captured and were to be tried in the Nuremberg trials. He believed that these leaders must have differed from most people. He wanted to find that difference in order to help prevent people with whatever traits he found from repeating what they did. He was deeply troubled to find no meaningful difference between them and normal results on his tests.Jack El-Hai told Kelley's story in his book The Nazi and the Psychiatrist, including interacting directly with Herman Göring, at one point the second highest ranking Nazi. In our conversation, Jack tells the highlights of his book. I discuss the relevance to polluting and depleting today, where everyone is contributing, violating our own values, but contributing to much more suffering and death than even the Holocaust.We also talk about the movie Nuremberg based on the book, including its stars, Russell Crowe and Rami Malek.Jack's home pageHis book page
858. 858: Beth Bailey, the great-grandmother influencer leading the cleaning of Mérida, Mexico
01:00:57||Ep. 858As a great-grandmother, Beth probably wouldn't describe herself as an influencer, but what else do you call it when videos of her go viral and prompt people to follow her?Longtime podcast listeners may remember episode 754: (Aunt) Trish Ellis and (Niece) Evelyn Wallace, part 1: Not Even Cancer Holds Her Back. We mentioned Beth, Evelyn’s mom and Trish’s sister. All three of them took the workshop. Beth and Evelyn also took my leadership and initiative courses that I offered to workshop alumni.Beth's initiative project was to pick up litter daily, but not just pick it up. She was inspired by an initiative she'd seen to restore pride in a community. For example, I pick up litter, but I just do it to clean where I walk. Her goal was bigger: to restore and inspire pride in where she lives, Mérida, Mexico. She planned things like a sign to invite favorable attention, what to wear, when to go out, how to talk to people.She's been picking up litter since. Then last month, at an alumni online lunch, she shared that someone secretly recorded her, posted the video, and by then the video had been seen over 1 million times. Plus, attention was leading to people joining her movement, opportunity to work with government, and more. I posted about it on my blog: Secret video of Beth picking up litter goes viral in Mexico.I invited her to share here. Listen for what happens when you persist.Beth's community page: Yo ❤ Mérida limpia. ¿Y tú?My post on her, linking to her videos and some media coverage: Secret video of Beth picking up litter goes viral in Mexico
857. 857: Kim Stanley Robinson: Science fiction writing and leadership
51:23||Ep. 857I met Stan in person at an event in Brooklyn. I had read Ministry for the Future a few years ago. He pointed out something I hadn't noticed since most people identify him as a science fiction writer. Ministry for the Future isn't exactly science fiction. He projects into the future, but he only includes plausible things---no flying cars or time travel.This practice invigorated my interest in his work. I also asked him how he handled water in New York 2140, since I knew it would have to be heavily polluted from sea level rise would flood landfills and cause their contents to disperse throughout the oceans. I enjoyed talking to him and invited him here.He has another identify besides as an author. He knows a lot about our environmental situation and attempts to address it. He's not an activist but more than an educator.I couldn't wait to engage with him on both identities. For him as an author, I found more to learn from him than I expected relevant to leadership, which I consider a performance art. As a writer, he has to create visions that readers accept and embrace. He has to express himself candidly but in a language the reader likes and feels engaged to continue. These points are relevant to leadership I asked him a bunch about the art and craft of writing from the perspective of someone wanting to improve his leadership.Naturally, we also talked about creativity regarding solutions.
856. 856: David Jenkins, President of Conservatives for Responsible Stewardship
01:03:05||Ep. 856Most environmentalists that I know of consider themselves progressive or liberal. They propose solutions that increase regulation and grow government, often in the style of the New Deal. Their role models are generally also progressive and liberal. They present conservatives as opponents, even enemies, sometimes evil. They consider them interested in themselves and profit, not caring who suffers for it.Over and over, they say about conservatives, "They don't care." Meanwhile, they pollute as much as anyone. They fund future extraction, companies that extract and pollute, their politicians, and lobbyists promoting more.I don't think they actually talk to conservatives. They project their preconceptions onto them and treat them as straw men.David Jenkins helps lead a conservative group that promotes stewardship. I suspect many environmentalists would consider the combination impossible, wondering if it's a front group.What do you expect? Could conservative values promote decreasing pollution, depletion, plunder, and misappropriating nature?Listen and find out.Conservatives for Responsible Stewardship's web page
855. 855: Peter DeCarlo PhD: Shocking Cancer Alley research from the scientist who did it
01:05:37||Ep. 855That this country has a region called Cancer Alley is beyond tragic. We know we're causing it, not just the companies operating the polluting refineries and other industrial plants. All of us who buy their products are funding them.I wondered if it was fair to call the region Cancer Alley. Is the evidence clear enough, even if not for a court to award damages?Peter DeCarlo is a researcher at Johns Hopkins who did original research and answered definitively: Yes. In our conversation, he described what motivated him to this research, the research, interacting with residents of Cancer Alley, how it affects him, physically and emotionally, and why he keeps going. It turns out his motivation started long before the research.The conversation returns at the end to some parts of his life at the beginning. I hope it motivates some to act out of the potential for life fulfillment.Peter's faculty page at Johns HopkinsThe video of Peter produced by podcast guest Maya Lilly: Justice for Saint James