The Lawfare Podcast

Alan Rozenshtein, Senior Editor at Lawfare, speaks with Brett Goldstein, Special Advisor to the Chancellor on National Security and Strategic Initiatives at Vanderbilt University; Brett Benson, Associate Professor of Political Science at Vanderbilt University; and Renée DiResta, Lawfare Contributing Editor and Associate Research Professor at Georgetown University's McCourt School of Public Policy.The conversation covers the evolution of influence operations from crude Russian troll farms to sophisticated AI systems using large language models; the discovery of GoLaxy documents revealing a "Smart Propaganda System" that collects millions of data points daily, builds psychological profiles, and generates resilient personas; operations targeting Hong Kong's 2020 protests and Taiwan's 2024 election; the fundamental challenges of measuring effectiveness; GoLaxy's ties to Chinese intelligence agencies; why detection has become harder as platform integrity teams have been rolled back and multi-stakeholder collaboration has broken down; and whether the United States can get ahead of this threat or will continue the reactive pattern that has characterized cybersecurity for decades.Mentioned in this episode:"The Era of A.I. Propaganda Has Arrived, and America Must Act,” by Brett J. Goldstein and Brett V. Benson (New York Times, August 5, 2025)"China Turns to A.I. in Information Warfare" by Julian E. Barnes (New York Times, August 6, 2025)"The GoLaxy Papers: Inside China's AI Persona Army,” by Dina Temple-Raston and Erika Gajda (The Record, September 19, 2025)"The supply of disinformation will soon be infinite,” by Renée DiResta (The Atlantic, September 2020)Find Scaling Laws on the Lawfare website, and subscribe to never miss an episode.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

This week, Scott sat down with his Lawfare colleagues Public Service Fellow Ari Tabatabai and Managing Editor Tyler McBrien to talk through the week’s big news in national security, including:“Great APEC-tations.” President Trump is headed to Asia this week, both for a meeting of the regional Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) organization and a one-on-one sit down with Chinese president Xi Jinping. It’s a moment destined to spotlight one of the more quixotic areas of the second Trump administration’s foreign policy, only complicated further by his (and China’s) increasingly aggressive trade maneuvers, particularly around rare earth minerals. What should we expect this week? And what does it tell us about the Trump administration’s Asia policy?“Pirates of the Caribbean.” The U.S. military build-up in the Caribbean has continued apace, even as the Trump administration has expanded its controversial military campaign against narcotics traffickers into the eastern Pacific. Even as both sets of actions have put pressure on the Maduro regime, they’ve also created rifts within Trump’s coalition—where a few legislators have begun to join Democrats in demanding more answers from the Trump administration—and the executive branch, where tensions appear to have contributed to the early retirement of the military commander in charge of the operation. What constraints are there on how far the president can go in this space? And how far will he push them?“Too Calm After the Storm.” Hurricane Melissa, one of the strongest on record, made landfall in Jamaica yesterday, and is now hovering over Cuba (in weakened form) on its way to the Bahamas. The devastation it is expected to have left in its wake would in the past have been the subject of an almost immediate U.S. assistance response—but it’s not clear what will be forthcoming today or how effective it will be given the dismantling of U.S. foreign assistance agencies. How should we expect the Trump administration to respond? And what could the long term consequences be?In object lessons, Tyler is sampling Baauer’s Sample Breakdowns on Instagram for the muses behind the music. Scott is musing about the various uses of his vacuum sealer, particularly for his garden bounty. And Ari is singing the praises of the versatility of black sesame.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

On today’s episode, Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien sits down with Quico Toro, global opinion columnist at the Washington Post and Director of Climate Repair at the Anthropocene Institute, to talk about his new book, “Charlatans: How Grifters, Swindlers, and Hucksters Bamboozle the Media, the Markets, and the Masses,” which he wrote with his co-author, Moisés Naím.They discuss what defines a charlatan, the cognitive biases they exploit to take people in, and how technological and societal changes have made charlatanism one of today’s most urgent crises.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Katsiaryna Shmatsina, Eurasia Fellow at Lawfare, sits down with Gabrielius Landsbergis, former Lithuanian Foreign Minister (2020–2024), now a visiting fellow at Stanford University, and Vytis Jurkonis, Associate Professor at Vilnius University and Director of Freedom House’s Lithuania office.They discuss Lithuania’s response to Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, including shifts in security policy, public sentiment, and military readiness. The conversation covers regional defense, U.S.–Lithuania relations, NATO’s role, and growing concerns about possible escalation into the Baltic region. They also reflect on Lithuania’s path from Soviet occupation to independence and its integration into NATO and the EU.Additional resources on this topic:Read more from GabrieliusRead more from Katsiaryna on the U.S. administration’s deal with Belarusian regimeRelated: Regional threat assessment of Russian military buildup near NATO bordersTo receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Sarah Powazek, Director of the Public Interest Cybersecurity Program at UC Berkeley’s Center for Long-Term Cybersecurity, and Michael Razeeq, Nonresident Fellow at the Public Interest Cybersecurity Program, join Lawfare’s Justin Sherman to discuss the cyber threats facing states, what options and resources states currently have to address cybersecurity problems, and how the concept of state cyber corps and volunteer programs fits into the picture. They also discuss how states can stand up a cyber corp or volunteer program, including recruiting and retaining talent; the impact of federal workforce and spending cuts on states’ cybersecurity capacities; and what future state and federal action on cybersecurity could do to improve states’ cyber postures.For more on this topic, see:Sarah Powazek and Grace Menna, “The Roadmap to Community Cyber Defense,” June 2025, UC Berkeley Center for Long-Term CybersecurityCyber Resilience Corps websiteTo receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

In a live conversation on YouTube, Lawfare Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Contributor James Pearce and Senior Editors Scott R. Anderson, Molly Roberts, Roger Parloff and Eric Columbus to discuss the arraignment of Letitia James, legal challenges to the appointments of Lindsey Halligan and Alina Habba to be U.S. attorneys, litigation over the federalization and deployment of National Guard, and so much more.You can find information on legal challenges to Trump administration actions here. And check out Lawfare’s new homepage on the litigation, new Bluesky account, and new WITOAD merch.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

From April 24, 2024: The annual U.S. Cyber Command (USCYBERCOM) Legal Conference convenes lawyers across government and the private sector working on cyber issues. This year’s conference focused on the power of partnerships. Executive Editor Natalie Orpett moderated a panel, titled “The Business of Battle: Navigating the Role of the Private Sector in Conflict,” featuring Jonathan Horowitz of the International Committee for the Red Cross, Laurie Blank of the Defense Department’s Office of the General Counsel, and Adam Hickey of the law firm Mayer Brown. They talked about how government and private sector actors bring different frames of reference and different equities when faced with a conflict, and how they can work together to address it.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

From June 5, 2023: It's been about six months since the attorney general issued new guidelines on compulsory process to members of the press in criminal and national security investigations, and two officials of the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press—Bruce Brown and Gabe Rottman—wrote a detailed analysis of the document in two parts for Lawfare. Rottman joined Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes to go through the document carefully: the long history that led to it, the shifting policies that have gotten more restrictive over the years since the Supreme Court ruled in Branzburg v. Hayes, the ramp-up of leak investigations and reporter subpoenas in the Obama and Trump administrations, and the new policy that creates a red line policy against them under most (but not all) circumstances. They talked about the document, about why the Justice Department has forsworn a historic and upheld authority, and about what it means for reporters and criminal investigations going forward.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

California State Senator Scott Wiener, author of Senate Bill 53—a frontier AI safety bill—signed into law by Governor Newsom earlier this month, joins Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor at Minnesota Law and Research Director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to explain the significance of SB 53 in the large debate about how to govern AI.The trio analyze the lessons that Senator Wiener learned from the battle of SB 1047, a related bill that Newsom vetoed last year, explore SB 53’s key provisions, and forecast what may be coming next in Sacramento and D.C.Find Scaling Laws on the Lawfare website, and subscribe to never miss an episode.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.