The Lawfare Podcast

Hillary Hartley, the former Chief Digital Officer of Ontario and former Co-Founder and Deputy Executive Director at 18F, and David Eaves, Associate Professor of Digital Government and Co-Deputy Director of the Institute for Innovation and Public Purpose at University College London, join Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at Texas Law and Contributing Editor at Lawfare, to discuss the recent closure of 18F, a digital unit within the GSA focused on updating and enhancing government technological systems and public-facing digital services. Hillary and David also published a recent Lawfare article on this topic, “Learning from the Legacy of 18F.”To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

For today’s episode, we’re bringing you the opening episode of our podcast Escalation. Escalation is a multi-part narrative podcast hosted by Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien and Ukraine Fellow Anastasiia Lapatina. Escalation lays bare the stakes of the Russo-Ukrainian War through powerful storytelling and compelling voices. It reveals forgotten promises and fragile alliances that have shaped the U.S.-Ukraine relationship and how the decisions of policymakers in Washington, Kyiv, and Moscow have global consequences.In Episode One: Chicken Kiev: The world watches the Cold War end and the Soviet Union break apart. And after centuries of Russian rule, Ukrainians may soon have their independence back. But in Washington, there’s fear that that independence could actually make the world more dangerous.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

This week, Scott joined his Lawfare colleagues Natalie Orpett and Eric Ciaramella to talk through the week’s big national security news, including:“In Mother Russia, Sometimes Bear Poke You.” Discussions over a possible broader ceasefire in Ukraine—beyond the temporary (and limited) energy and Black Sea ceasefire agreements last week—appear to have ground to a halt over Russian demands. Many observers suspect this is simply a stalling technique by Russian President Vladimir Putin, as Russia prepares for another offensive intended to improve his negotiating leverage. President Trump, meanwhile, in a rare swipe at the Russian dictator, has said he’s “pissed off.” But will Trump bring leverage to bear enough for Putin to budge? Or are the ceasefire negotiations like to stay stuck in the mud—and, if so, will Trump know who to blame?“Nuukin’ Futs.” Vice President J.D. Vance visited the northernmost U.S. military base in Greenland last week and delivered a speech in front of U.S. service members that accused Denmark of neglecting its Greenland protectorate and failing to adequately protect it from China and Russia—shortcomings that, in his telling, justify President Trump’s stated intent to gain U.S. control over the island nation. Is there any truth to Vance’s allegations? And will his remarks help or hurt the Trump administration’s purported objective of securing Greenland and improving U.S. access to its various resources? “Third Term’s the Charm.” In an interview this week, President Trump insisted to reporters that he was serious about potentially pursuing a third term and suggested that there were “methods” by which he could do so, in spite of the 22nd Amendment’s two-term limitation on presidents. How seriously should we take his threat? Are there arguments that could carry water — and will it matter?In object lessons, Natalie—tire-d of DC traffic—“spoke” highly of her beloved ebike. Scott, flying solo in NYC, curled up with his Kindle at Amor y Amargo, contemplating the question: how many Amaros does it take to make the perfect Sazerac? And Eric praised “Language City: The Fight to Preserve Endangered Mother Tongues in New York,” by Ross Perlin—a fascinating portrait of linguistic diversity and the fight to preserve it.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Atul Gawande is a surgeon and a public health expert. He's also the former head of global health at the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID), an agency that the Trump administration has prioritized for dismantling since its first day in office. On today's episode, Executive Editor Natalie Orpett sat down with Gawande to discuss what USAID does, the consequences of destroying it, and why public health is so important to U.S. national security.Editor's Note: This episode was recorded on March 27, 2025. The following day, the Trump administration announced that USAID would be dissolved by the end of this fiscal year. To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Adam Thierer, Senior Fellow for the Technology & Innovation team at R Street, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the UT Austin School of Law and a Contributing Editor at Lawfare, to review public comments submitted in response to the Office of Science and Technology Policy’s Request for Information on the AI Action Plan. The pair summarize their own comments and explore those submitted by major labs and civil society organizations. They also dive into recent developments in the AI regulatory landscape, including a major veto by Governor Youngkin in Virginia.Readings discussed:Kevin on Vance’s America First, America Only Approach to AIKeegan and Adam on AI Safety Treatises Kevin on Proposed Firings at NISTDean and Alan on PreemptionTo receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

On March 28, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes will sit down with Lawfare Senior Editors Scott Anderson, Anna Bower, and Roger Parloff, Lawfare Contributing Editor James Pearce, and former ACLU National Legal Director David Cole to discuss the status of the civil litigation against President Trump’s executive actions, including the deportation of individuals under the Alien Enemies Act, the detention of Mahmoud Khalil, and the targeting of law firms.

From January 30, 2024: U.S. military operations against Houthi rebels in Yemen have escalated rapidly in recent weeks, culminating in a number of major strikes aimed at degrading their ability to threaten Red Sea shipping traffic. But the war powers reports the Biden administration has provided to Congress are raising questions about how it is legally justifying this latest military campaign. To discuss the burgeoning conflict in Yemen and what it might mean for war powers, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Brian Finucane, Senior Adviser at the Crisis Group; Lawfare Co-founder and Harvard Law School Professor Jack Goldsmith; and Lawfare Research Fellow Matt Gluck. They talked about their recent pieces on the topic, what we know and don’t know about the administration’s legal theory, and what the law might mean for how the conflict evolves moving forward. To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

From April 22, 2021: Jack Goldsmith sat down with Lee Bollinger, the president of Columbia University, and Geoffrey Stone, the Edward H. Levy Distinguished Service Professor at the University of Chicago Law School, to discuss their new book, "National Security, Leaks and Freedom of the Press: The Pentagon Papers Fifty Years On." They discussed the holding and legacy of the Pentagon Papers case, as well as some of the many challenges of applying the Pentagon Papers regime in the modern digital era that is characterized by massive leaks and a very different press landscape than the one that prevailed in 1971.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

For today's episode, Lawfare Foreign Policy Editor Daniel Byman interviewed Natan Sachs, the Director of the Middle East Program of the Brookings Institution, to discuss Israel's turbulent domestic situation and the renewal of the conflicts in Gaza and Lebanon. Sachs explains Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's political tactics, the controversies over the budget, judicial reform and the resulting protests, and the sacking of figures like Shin Bet chief Ronen Bar. Sachs also discusses why Israel has decided to renew operations in Gaza and Lebanon and why strikes on Iran are more likely than in the past. To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.