The Lawfare Podcast

On Dec. 5, the European Commission announced that they are fining X (formerlly Twitter) 120 million euros for impersonation scams with “verification,” broken advertising transpaency system, and blocking researchers from its platform. On a Lawfare Live, Lawfare Senior Editor Kate Klonick and Lawfare Contributing Editor Renee DiResta analyzed the decision, what happens next, and how this fits into the geopolitical struggle over free speech.

Caleb Withers, a researcher at the Center for a New American Security, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss how frontier models shift the balance in favor of attackers in cyberspace. The two discuss how labs and governments can take steps to address these asymmetries favoring attackers, and the future of cyber warfare driven by AI agents. Jack Mitchell, a student fellow in the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law, provided excellent research assistance on this episode.Check out Caleb’s recent research here. Find Scaling Laws on the Lawfare website, and subscribe to never miss an episode.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

New START, the last bilateral nuclear arms control treaty between the United States and Russia, will expire in February 2026 if Washington and Moscow do not reach an understanding on its extension—as they have signaled they are interested to do. What would the end of New START mean for U.S.-Russia relations and the arms control architecture that had for decades contributed to stability among great powers?Lawfare Public Service Fellow Ariane Tabatabai sits down with John Drennan, Robert A. Belfer International Affairs Fellow in European Security, at the Council on Foreign Relations, and Matthew Sharp, Fellow at MIT’s Center for Nuclear Security Policy, to discuss what New START is, the implications of its expiration, and where the arms control regime might go from here.For further reading, see:“Putin’s Nuclear Offer: How to Navigate a New START Extension,” by John Drennan and Erin D. Dumbacher, Council on Foreign Relations“No New START: Renewing the U.S.-Russian Deal Won’t Solve Today’s Nuclear Dilemmas,” by Eric S. Edelman and Franklin C. Miller, Foreign Affairs“2024 Report to Congress on Implementation of the New START Treaty,” from the Bureau of Arms Control, Deterrence, and Stability, U.S. Department of StateTo receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

This week, Scott sat down with his Lawfare colleagues Benjamin Wittes, Natalie Orpett and Eric Ciaramella to talk through the week’s big national security news stories, including:“The Art of the Ordeal.” The Trump administration has been at the center of yet another bout of shuttle diplomacy the last several weeks, after an initial “28-point plan” for peace in Ukraine it appeared to hash out with Russia was met with widespread skepticism, both at home and in Kiev — leading it to shift focus to a “19-point plan” officials hashed out in closer consultation with Ukrainian officials and European officials, which was subsequently rejected by Russian President Vladimir Putin. What does this chaotic process tell us about the Trump administration’s strategy and priorities? And what is it likely to mean for America’s Ukrainian allies? “The War Crime on Drugs.” Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth is at the center of another controversy, this time over his reported order to “kill everybody” in the first strike on an alleged narcotics-smuggling boat this past September—an order that, intentionally or not, led to a second strike that killed several people who were by that point clinging to wreckage in the open sea, in seemingly clear violation of Defense Department practice and the laws of armed conflict. Hegseth and the White House have sought to shift responsibility for the second strike to senior military personnel, but it’s not clear whether Congress—where Democrats and Republicans on the armed services committees are threatening oversight—are persuaded.“Unlawful Good.” Several legislators who are also current or former servicemembers have been labeled the “Seditious Six” by the Trump administration and its allies for public statements they made reiterating that servicemembers’ are only obligated to follow lawful orders, specifically in relation to ongoing counter-narcotics military operations in the Caribbean. And at least one—Sen. Mark Kelly, a retired naval officer—has been publicly threatened with a court martial by the Defense Department. How seriously should we take these legal actions? And what could the broader ramifications be for the military?In object lessons, Ben uses his once per decade mulligan. Eric recommends his current reading selection, "Chokepoints: American Power in the Age of Economic Warfare," a book that Scott reviewed on the Lawfare Podcast earlier this year. Scott gets into the spirit with one of his favorite seasonal albums, "It's a Holiday Soul Party." And Natalie plugs Lawfare’s new Domestic deployment tracker - plus, a fabulous, olive-filled stuffing recipe (just add croutons!)Rational Security will be having its traditional end-of-year episode later this month, which will focus on listener-submitted topics and object lessons! So if you have topics you want us to discuss and object lessons you want to share—whether serious or frivolous—be sure to send them to rationalsecurity@lawfaremedia.org by Dec. 17th!

Veteran legal journalist Reynolds Holding, author of "Better Judgment: How Three Judges Are Bringing Justice Back to the Courts," and U.S. District Judge Jed Rakoff, one of the judges featured in his book, sit down with Lawfare Senior Editor Roger Parloff to discuss the role of district judges in our justice system. They also discuss the attacks those judges are enduring today from the Department of Justice, the White House, Congress, and even members of the U.S. Supreme Court.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

For today's episode, Lawfare Foreign Policy Editor Daniel Byman sits down with Seth Jones, the President of the Defense and Security Department at the Center for Strategic & International Studies to discuss Seth's new book about the U.S and Chinese industrial bases, "The American Edge: The Military Tech Nexus and the Sources of Great Power Dominance."To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Rear Admiral (Ret.) Mark Montgomery is the Senior Director of the Center on Cyber and Technology Innovation at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies. He spent 32 years in the Navy as a nuclear-trained surface warfare officer, retiring as a rear admiral in 2017. After leaving the Navy, Admiral Montgomery worked as policy director for the Senate Armed Services Committee during Senator John McCain's chairmanship, and as Executive Director of the Cyberspace Solarium Commission, a congressionally created commission directed to “develop a consensus on a strategic approach to defending the United States in cyberspace against cyber attacks of significant consequences.” In this episode, Lawfare Book Review Editor Jonathan Cedarbaum sits down with Admiral Montgomery to discuss the fifth annual implementation report prepared by the Cyberspace Solarium Commission 2.0, which assesses how the federal government has done over the last year in implementing the Solarium Commission's recommendations for strengthening the United States' cybersecurity posture. The report, whose lead author was Admiral Montgomery, concludes that "[o]ur nation’s ability to protect itself and its allies from cyber threats is stalling and, in several areas, slipping." They discuss the scope and impacts of the Trump administration funding and staffing cuts in leading agencies responsible for cybersecurity; the weakening of public-private collaboration, including the closing of the Critical Infrastructure Partnership Advisory Council; and the weakening of recruitment efforts to build the cyber workforce the country needs.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

From November 19, 2024: Lawfare Associate Editor Olivia Manes sat down with with Marlene Laruelle, a Research Professor of International Affairs and Political Science at The George Washington University, and Director of GW's Illiberalism Studies Program, to discuss the financial, ideological, and historical connections between the American far-right and Russia. Marlene discussed the distinction between confluence and influence, white supremacist notions of a "pan-white" nation embodied by Russia, the role of the Russian Orthodox Church in fostering connections, and more.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

From November 26, 2024: Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sits down with Chris Mirasola, Assistant Professor of Law at the University of Houston Law Center, to discuss the legal and practical considerations surrounding a president’s ability to deploy the military at the U.S. southern border, particularly in light of President-elect Trump’s recent endorsement of “declar[ing] a national emergency” in order to “use military assets” for “a mass deportation program.” They discuss the implications of a national emergency declaration for immigration enforcement, the existing legal framework and historical context, and concerns about using the National Guard in a law enforcement function. They also talk about the logistics of building detention facilities, the Insurrection Act as a significant legal tool that could expand military authority in domestic contexts, and more.For more on this topic, read Chris’s recent Lawfare article, “How Can Trump Deploy the Military at the Southern Border?” You can watch a video version of this conversation here. To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.