The Lawfare Podcast

In recent weeks, President Trump has embarked on a campaign of extortion against law firms, pushing major firms to either reach agreements with the White House or face executive orders in retribution. A number of major firms have chosen to negotiate—agreeing to deals that are already under pressure as the White House seeks to extract more. Four firms—Perkins Coie, Jenner & Block, WilmerHale, and Susman Godfrey—have chosen to fight retaliatory executive orders in court and have secured temporary restraining orders against the administration. John Keker and Bob Van Nest joined the podcast to discuss these events. They’re partners at the firm Keker, Van Nest & Peters, and—along with their fellow partner Elliot Peters—published an op-ed in the New York Times urging law firms to stand up for themselves. In conversation with Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic, they discussed why the Trump administration’s efforts pose such a threat to the rule of law and shared their insights into the dynamics inside law firms right now, what pressures might move a firm to capitulate, and what the firms that have chosen to fight are risking in the process.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

On April 15, Judge Paula Xinis held a hearing in the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the man deported by accident to a notorious prison in El Salvador. Lawfare Senior Editors Roger Parloff and Anna Bower covered the hearing live and debriefed on it with Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes immediately afterwards.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

The Supreme Court recently held oral arguments in the case of Mexico v. Smith & Wesson, a groundbreaking case brought by the government of Mexico that seeks to hold U.S. gun manufacturers accountable for cartels' use of American weapons to perpetrate violence in Mexico. On today's episode, Executive Editor Natalie Orpett talked with Jonathan Lowy, an attorney at Global Action on Gun Violence, who represents the government of Mexico in the suit, and Chantal Flores, a freelance journalist who has focused on Mexican cartels and has written about the case. They discussed the flow of U.S.-made guns into Mexico, how it relates to cartel violence, and the complicated legal and policy context around Mexico’s case.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

Daniel Kokotajlo, former OpenAI researcher and Executive Director of the AI Futures Project, and Eli Lifland, a researcher with the AI Futures Project, join Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at Texas Law and Contributing Editor at Lawfare, to discuss what AI may look like in 2027. The trio explore a report co-authored by Daniel that dives into the hypothetical evolution of AI over the coming years. This novel report has already elicited a lot of attention with some reviewers celebrating its creativity and others questioning its methodology. Daniel and Eli tackle that feedback and help explain the report’s startling conclusion—that superhuman AI will develop within the next decade.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

In a live conversation on April 11, Lawfare Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower, Quinta Jurecic, and Roger Parloff, Lawfare Legal Fellow James Pearce, and Lawfare contributor James Pearce to discuss the status of the civil litigation against President Trump’s executive actions, including the April 11 hearing on the removal of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the Supreme Court’s decisions in Abrego Garcia’s case and the Alien Enemies Act case, the targeting of law firms, and more.

From May 16, 2023: In recent years, the Supreme Court's non-merits “shadow docket” has become a topic of contestation and controversy, especially the Court's emergency orders rulings on issues ranging from immigration to abortion to Covid-19 restrictions.To discuss these issues, Jack Goldsmith sat down with Stephen Vladeck, the Charles Alan Wright Chair in Federal Courts at the University of Texas School of Law, who is the author of a new book entitled, “The Shadow Docket: How the Supreme Court Uses Stealth Rulings to Amass Power and Undermine the Republic.” They discussed the origins of the contemporary shadow docket in some 1973 emergency orders related to the bombing of Cambodia, why the Court’s shadow docket has grown in prominence in recent years, what's wrong with the shadow docket, and how to fix it.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

From March 8, 2024: The practice of surveillance capitalism—the widespread private collection and commodification of personal data—is well understood. Less well understood is the extent to which the U.S. government purchases this data in the commercial marketplace to use it for intelligence and law enforcement purposes. Byron Tau, when he was a reporter with The Wall Street Journal, did more than anyone to bring this practice to public light. Jack Goldsmith sat down recently with Tau to discuss his new book on the topic, “Means of Control: How the Hidden Alliance of Tech and Government is Creating a New American Surveillance State.” They discussed how the private broker market works, why the government is able to purchase bulk private data with relatively few legal restrictions, and the threat to privacy and civil liberties that inheres in the practice. They also discussed why this form of data is so important to the government and the prospects for reform of the relatively unregulated practice.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

For today's episode, Lawfare Foreign Policy Editor Daniel Byman interviewed Tom Karako, the Director of the Missile Defense Program at CSIS, to discuss the Trump administration's missile defense proposals known as "Golden Dome." Karako explains the purpose of Golden Dome, its feasibility and cost, the likely reactions of China and Russia, and what realistic success would look like.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

This week, Scott sat down with co-hosts emeritus Benjamin Wittes, Quinta Jurecic and Lawfare's new senior legal fellow James Pearce to talk through the week's biggest national security news stories, including:“Midnight Planes Going Anywhere.” The Supreme Court has weighed in on the Trump administration’s decision to quickly fly dozens of Venezuelan nationals to El Salvador with little to no meaningful process, holding that those detained had to be provided notice and an opportunity to challenge their removal, but only through habeas in their place of detention. Meanwhile, we are still awaiting the Court’s final decision on whether a lower court can direct the executive branch to seek the return of another man who was removed to El Salvador by mistake. What will these decisions mean for the Trump administration’s aggressive deportation policies?“All the King’s Horses and All the King’s Men, Won’t Be Able to Put Humphrey’s Together Again.” Watchers of the D.C. Circuit may have suffered whiplash this week, as an appellate panel reversed a district court’s conclusion that the Trump administration’s removal of statutorily protected members of the Merit Service Protection Board and National Labor Review Board was most likely unlawful, only for the panel itself to be reversed in short order by the whole en banc court. The issues now seem clearly poised for review by the Supreme Court. Is Humphrey’s Executor and other case law preserving independent agencies toast? Or might the Court stop short of killing independent agencies altogether?“A Duty of Pander.” Attorney General Pam Bondi punished a Justice Department attorney this week after he admitted to a federal court that he had not been provided adequate answers to some of the court’s questions. It’s the latest in a parade of disciplinary actions accusing attorneys of disloyalty for engaging in candor with the federal courts over the confusion that some of the Trump administration’s policies have caused. Is the Attorney General within her rights to crack down on these actions? And what impact will her demand for loyalty have on the Justice Department’s relationship with the federal courts?For object lessons, Quinta recommended the movie "Margin Call" as a reflection on the last financial crisis, as we prepare for the next one. Ben brought attention to Russia's brutal and inhumane attack on a children's playground in Ukrainian President Volodmyr Zelensky's hometown of Kryvi Rih, which underscores just how committed Russia really is to peace. Scott shared his latest home pizza discovery—a one hour no-knead recipe for pan pizza crust from King Arthur's Baking—as well as his next experiment: an all edge pieces pan pizza. And James gave a double-header object lesson, sharing his participation in the Baker to Vegas footrace and his reading of another story about something even more inhuman: Mary Shelley's Frankenstein.