It Was What It Was : The Football History Podcast

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper begin a four-part series marking 30 years since Arsène Wenger’s arrival at Arsenal, framing him—alongside David Dein—as a key catalyst for the Premier League’s shift toward foreign managers, multicultural squads, and modern nutrition and sports science. They trace Wenger’s roots in rural, war-scarred Alsace on the French-German border: his parents’ hard-working life, his father’s forced Nazi conscription, the Catholic village culture, and Wenger’s intense, self-aware obsession with football. The episode explores how he learned the game through unsupervised street football and bistro conversations, a serious illness at 14, and his desire to escape village life. Wenger’s breakthrough came at 19 after being spotted in a heavy defeat and joining Mutzig, leading to university studies in Strasbourg, a stint learning English in Cambridge, a squad role in Strasbourg’s 1979 title win, and an early move into coaching—already using a psychiatrist with youth players.00:00 Wenger Obsession Intro01:23 Why Wenger Changed England03:41 Alsace War Shadow07:30 Village Roots and Work Ethic10:49 French Football Culture Explained16:18 Street Football and Brother Guy18:59 Faith Philosophy and Le Professor24:32 Illness Growth and Escape27:19 Bistro Lessons La Croix d'Or28:53 Wine and Bistro Roots29:37 Bar Talk and Escape30:09 Football Dreams in Dittlingen33:00 Mutzig Breakthrough34:13 Max Hild Mentor36:44 Dancing and Philosophy39:55 University and Class Divide42:10 Strasbourg Squad Years43:29 Cambridge English Leap46:47 Coaching Begins at Strasbourg47:31 Total Football Influences50:11 Holistic Coaching Mindset51:30 Wrap Up and Next Episode

Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson examine Kwame Nkrumah’s state-backed club Real Republicans and why it became widely unpopular despite winning trophies, after being created by taking top players from existing clubs without compensation and reinforcing regional and ethnic tensions, particularly in Ashanti. They track criticism in the Evening News and Ashanti Pioneer, Kotoko’s protests, and the club’s lack of public support even at its peak. The episode argues the project nonetheless helped the Black Stars by building cohesion, highlighted by a 3–3 draw with Real Madrid in 1962 and Ghana’s AFCON triumphs in 1963 and 1965 under C.K. Gyamfi, with key players drawn from Republicans. The discussion then links football to Nkrumah’s growing authoritarianism, economic strain from cocoa price swings, and his 1966 CIA-backed coup, after which Real Republicans were dissolved, while Ghana’s club and national successes continued briefly before declining with reduced state support.00:00 Why Fans Reject Republicans01:33 Nkrumah Builds a Model Club05:09 Player Raids Spark Backlash09:05 Trophies Without Love16:32 Politics and Regional Resentment21:34 Cocoa Prices and Ashanti Nationalism25:41 Break and Reset26:07 Golden Era for Black Stars26:55 Real Madrid Draw and FIFA Fight29:24 World Cup Qualifiers Reality Check30:12 FIFA Spots Ghana32:08 Real Republicans Core33:18 Baba Yara Tragedy34:00 1963 AFCON Triumph36:03 Ethiopia Tangent41:10 1965 AFCON Away Win43:38 Ghana Legacy Debate45:37 Nkrumah Turns Authoritarian50:27 Coup Ends Era51:37 Aftermath and Wrap

Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson discuss how Kwame Nkrumah used football to build Ghana’s national identity and promote Pan-African unity after independence (1957) and becoming a republic (1960). They trace Ghana’s colonial background as the Gold Coast, Nkrumah’s education and political radicalization in London and the US, his leadership of the CPP, and the push to independence amid postwar unrest and cocoa blight riots. Nkrumah backed football as a tool for unity, sponsoring the Nkrumah Gold Cup and founding the African Club Championships (Osagyefo Cup), a precursor to today’s African Champions League. The episode then profiles Ghana star C.K. Gyamfi (“Magic Feet”), his rise through local clubs, a 1951 UK tour, and a breakthrough spell at Fortuna Düsseldorf in 1960 before returning to play for Ghana.00:00 Nkrumah and Football Nationhood03:04 Ghana Under Empire04:53 Nkrumah Abroad and Ideas06:38 London Debates and Mentors12:33 Return and Rising Unrest15:15 CPP and Road to Independence18:43 Republic and Cult of Leader20:05 Sport as National Unity23:11 Pan African Tournaments Begin25:30 Gold Cup Wins and Wider Wave26:53 Osagyefo Cup Club Vision27:13 Osagyefo Cup Origins27:58 First African Club Final28:17 Unity Through Football30:01 Ghana Golden Era Focus31:07 Meet CK Gyamfi33:14 Early Life And Clubs35:00 Mysterious Dwarves Tangent38:41 Kotoko And UK Tour41:55 Germany With Fortuna48:06 Called Back To Ghana49:31 Part One Wrap Up

Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper continue their Kevin Keegan series, following his 1977 move from Liverpool to Hamburg for a far higher salary and the difficult start marked by teammate resentment, managerial upheaval, a humiliating Super Cup loss at Anfield, and an eight-week ban after he struck a defender in a friendly at Lübeck. They chart his turnaround under Branko Zebec as Hamburg win the Bundesliga in 1978–79, Keegan becomes a German celebrity, learns the language, and wins the Ballon d’Or twice, before turning down Juventus and returning to England with an underwhelming Southampton spell and a breakdown with Lawrie McMenemy. The episode also covers Keegan’s burdened England captaincy amid missed World Cups, including a beating by Yugoslav police, threats in Belfast, Euro 1980, and injury-hit World Cup 1982, before his high-profile move to Second Division Newcastle, the lift he gives the city, and his retirement after a sobering FA Cup loss to Liverpool.00:00 Keegan Cashes In01:06 Hamburg Move Explained01:39 The Bubble Perm Era03:40 Frosty Dressing Room06:36 Lübeck Punch Up09:46 Backlash and Doubts10:58 Turning Point Return12:01 Zebec Sparks Revival14:03 Pop Star in Germany17:20 Ballon d'Or Debate21:12 European Cup Heartbreak23:14 Shock Southampton Switch25:07 Saints Reality Check27:22 Keegan Takes Criticism Personally28:27 England Captain Burden30:38 Poland Wembley Heartbreak31:47 Belgrade Police Beating34:20 Euro 1980 Chaos35:38 Thatcher Photo Fallout36:51 IRA Threats Belfast40:28 World Cup 1982 Injury43:50 Newcastle Homecoming Move46:52 Robson Drops Keegan49:31 Keegan Lifts Newcastle55:12 Lawrenson Moment Retirement55:54 Helicopter Farewell Wrap

*The full three-part series is available on Patreon now*Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper pay tribute to Kevin Keegan, who died in July aged 75, reflecting on his rare charisma, self-awareness, and ability to connect with people, as well as his status as the only British player to win the Ballon d’Or twice. They trace his working-class upbringing in Armthorpe near Doncaster, his family’s mining and Labour roots, and formative influences like Sister Mary Oliver, who encouraged his football. The episode follows Keegan’s unlikely early path—rejected by Doncaster and Coventry, starting at Scunthorpe—through his move to Liverpool under Bill Shankly, where his fitness, motivation, and partnership with John Toshack helped drive major success, alongside growing fame via endorsements and Superstars. They end with Keegan’s decision to leave as Liverpool approach European glory.00:00 Tribute to Keegan01:09 Charisma and Kindness06:19 Roots in Doncaster09:14 Mining Heritage15:22 School and Sweetheart22:21 Rejected Then Spotted24:28 Scunthorpe Breakthrough28:18 Move to Liverpool30:03 Negotiating His Worth33:34 Late Arrival Debut35:22 Toshack Partnership35:47 Sweat Box Fitness37:10 Telepathy Test Hoax40:12 Shankly Mind Games41:46 Celebrity Endorsements47:26 Superstars Bike Crash49:48 Trophies And Turning Point54:44 Shankly Leaves Fallout57:34 European Peak Exit Plan

The fourth and final episode in Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper's Total Football series explores Ajax’s remarkable success under Stefan Kovacs and the Netherlands’ unforgettable 1974 World Cup campaign.Kovacs inherited Rinus Michels’ European champions but allowed the side’s fluid, player-led style to evolve. Ajax continued to win major honours, including two European Cups, but growing player power and Johan Cruyff’s influence created tensions beneath the success. As internal divisions deepened, Kovacs left, Cruyff departed for Barcelona, and Ajax’s golden era began to unravel.Enter the 1974 World Cup. Despite a difficult qualification process and a squad shaped by rivalries, Michels and Cruyff assembled a side that thrilled the world. They swept past Argentina, overcame Brazil in a fiercely contested encounter, and brought Total Football to its global peak.But in the final against hosts West Germany, an early lead was not enough. Off-pitch distractions, overconfidence and German resilience contributed to a famous 2–1 defeat.The Dutch did not lift the World Cup, but their legacy was greater than a single trophy: Total Football transformed how the modern game is played.

In part three of our Total Football series, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper arrive at Ajax’s golden age.They explore Johan Cruyff’s development: the precocious teenager shaped by Ajax, Vic Buckingham and Rinus Michels; a player whose extraordinary understanding of space, timing and tactics made him the ultimate expression of individuality within a system.The episode unpicks how Ajax’s 4-3-3 worked in practice. Positional rotations, an aggressive offside trap, collective pressing and the instinctive relationships built through years of playing together.Jonathan also examines the uncomfortable questions around fitness, sports science and alleged stimulant use in the era, before charting Ajax’s first European Cup triumph in 1971 and the arrival of Ștefan Kovács after Michels’ departure for Barcelona.This is the story of how a brilliant group of players, led by Cruyff, turned a tactical idea into the most influential team in European football.You can listen to all the Total Football episodes early right now, here on Patreon. Enjoy.

*You can listen to the full episode on our Patreon*Rob Draper hosts a bonus edition of It Was What It Was with Jamie Carragher stepping in to pay tribute to the late great Franco Baresi .Carragher explains why Baresi’s name is passed down through generations, calls him the greatest defender he’s ever seen, and hails Sacchi’s AC Milan as the greatest team until Guardiola’s Barcelona, with Baresi and Maldini central to a back four that revolutionised modern football through pressing, a high line and the shift away from the sweeper system.They discuss Baresi’s unique blend of sweeper elegance and aggressive defending in a back four, his extraordinary return from a knee injury for the 1994 World Cup final against Romario, and how his football brain overcame a lack of height. Carragher also shares meeting Baresi at a Milan derby and showing his signed Baresi shirts.