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It Was What It Was : The Football History Podcast
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161. Football's Coming Home: How England Won The 1966 World Cup | Part Four
58:58||Season 1, Ep. 161To listen to the full four-part series instantly, subscribe to our Patreon where listeners can enjoy ad-free listening, our World Cup Wednesdays, bonus editions and live Q&A episodes.Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson conclude their four-part series on England’s 1966 World Cup win, picking up from the semi-final against Portugal and Eusébio, where Alf Ramsey sticks with Geoff Hurst over the media-favoured Jimmy Greaves and England’s wingless 4-1-3-2 thrives, with Bobby Charlton scoring twice and Jack Charlton’s handball leading to a late penalty. They then set up the final against West Germany, including Ramsey’s instruction for Charlton to sit deeper and nullify Franz Beckenbauer, before revisiting a disjointed 4–2 match shaped by England’s direct play, West Germany’s controversial equaliser, Hurst’s debated goal off the bar, and his hat-trick. The episode also explores Ramsey’s vindication, England’s fitness and planning, and the broader cultural context of Swinging London, post-imperial Britain, and the night of celebrations after victory.00:00 Doubting Ramsey00:23 Series Setup01:04 Semifinal Stakes02:07 Bobby Charlton Anxiety05:13 Greaves Or Hurst07:12 Wingless Wonders Win08:57 Charlton Double11:44 Penalty Scare12:50 Charlton Family Duty14:53 1966 Life Off Pitch17:47 Cinema And Trauma20:13 Final Plan Mark Beckenbauer22:20 Final Rewatch Context24:03 Targeting Tilkowski25:07 Final Goals Breakdown26:26 German Equaliser Debate28:13 Ramsey Team Talk Myth29:26 Ramsey Mind Games30:08 Fitness Wins Extra Time30:34 Was It Over The Line32:52 Pitch Invaders Fourth Goal33:48 Hurst Becomes Immortal35:01 Planning Versus Flair36:52 Ramsey Vindicated40:19 War Memory And Germany43:05 Swinging London Soundtrack45:19 Post Imperial Cool Britannia50:48 Football Enters Mainstream54:07 Night Of Celebration57:05 Legacy And Farewell
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160. Football's Coming Home: How England Won The 1966 World Cup | Part Three
01:05:07||Season 1, Ep. 160To listen to the full four-part series instantly, subscribe to our Patreon where listeners can enjoy ad-free listening, our World Cup Wednesdays, bonus editions and live Q&A episodes.Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson continue their series on how England won the 1966 World Cup by focusing on the quarter-final against Argentina, presented as the tournament’s key and most controversial test. They explain Alf Ramsey’s tactical preparation, including hiding his 4-1-3-2 “wingless” system and replacing the injured Jimmy Greaves with the more aerially suited Geoff Hurst. The episode traces Ramsey’s lessons from England’s 1964 South American trip, where Argentina’s pragmatic defensive approach and man-marking shaped his thinking, then sets the fraught 1966 backdrop: referee paranoia, Argentina’s internal chaos and recent coup, and a Wembley training dispute caused by greyhound racing. They dissect Antonio Rattín’s baffling dismissal amid language barriers and unclear bookings, the ugly atmosphere, and England’s 1–0 win through Hurst, before covering the aftermath, including Ramsey’s “animals” remark, protests, bans, fines, and Argentina’s defiant homecoming.00:00 Setting Up England Argentina01:23 Ramsey Hides Wingless Wonders03:16 Hurst Replaces Greaves05:11 Mundialito Lessons In Brazil09:47 Argentina Pragmatism And Press Reaction15:43 Referee Paranoia And FIFA Politics19:14 Argentina Chaos Before Wembley22:40 Greyhound Racing And Pre Match Tension26:32 Match Begins And Footage Limits29:37 Rattin Booking Sparks Flashpoint33:57 Booking Confusion Builds35:06 Rattin Sent Off Mystery38:40 Interpreter Myth Explained41:53 Aero Bars and Union Jack45:25 Who Was Actually Booked46:06 Press Fury and Fix Claims51:56 Ten Men Battle On56:01 England Finally Break Through57:18 Animals Comment Fallout01:03:17 Bans Fines and Aftermath
159. Football's Coming Home: How England Won The 1966 World Cup | Part Two
51:11||Season 1, Ep. 159To listen to the full four-part series instantly, subscribe to our Patreon where listeners can enjoy ad-free listening, our World Cup Wednesdays, bonus editions and live Q&A episodes.Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson continue their four-part series on England’s 1966 World Cup win by tracing how Alf Ramsey’s team took shape amid low expectations and press criticism after a 3–2 Wembley loss to Austria. They discuss doubts over the 4-2-4, Bobby Charlton’s role, and growing concerns about Jimmy Greaves’ form, before key friendlies reveal Ramsey’s “wingless wonders” approach: a 4-1-3-2/4-3-3 hybrid showcased in Spain and then unveiled dramatically in Poland with the surprise inclusion of Martin Peters. At the World Cup, Ramsey initially reverts to wingers, drawing 0–0 with Uruguay, then beating Mexico 2–0 via a standout Bobby Charlton strike and France 2–0 with Roger Hunt’s goals. Two shadows emerge: Nobby Stiles’ violent conduct against France and Greaves’ shin injury that rules him out of the quarterfinal, opening the door for Geoff Hurst.00:00 England Written Off01:48 Austria Defeat Fallout04:17 Ramsey Rethinks Tactics07:47 Greaves Under Scrutiny10:24 Spain Reveals Wingless Plan15:08 Poland Test and Peters Shock20:43 Hiding the System22:21 World Cup Opener Uruguay25:49 Uruguay Stalemate Fallout26:49 Meet J L Manning28:58 Tactics Jargon Backlash32:24 Mexico Magic Moment33:15 Charlton Screamer Breakdown36:18 France Win And Rotation39:04 Stiles Controversy And FA Row42:36 Greaves Injury Hurst Opportunity44:50 Greaves Debate Luxury Player50:05 Next Episode And Patreon Plug
158. Football's Coming Home: How England Won The 1966 World Cup | Part One
55:01||Season 1, Ep. 158To listen to the full four-part series instantly, subscribe to our Patreon where listeners can enjoy ad-free listening, our World Cup Wednesdays, bonus editions and live Q&A episodes.Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson begin a four-part series revisiting England’s 1966 World Cup win by focusing on Sir Alf Ramsey’s background and the conservative England setup he inherited, including the FA selection committee and a poor early World Cup record. They argue Ramsey, often caricatured as dour, was socially conservative and xenophobic but tactically radical, demanding control of selection and modernizing England with a system-focused approach influenced by his Ipswich success, zonal marking, and experiments that questioned traditional wingers. They discuss his reserved personality, class and heritage issues, a reported instance of backing a player convicted of gross indecency, and why blaming 1966 for later English insularity is misguided. Ramsey’s early England results are mixed, but a 1964 Brazil trip helps crystallize his shift away from 4-2-4, and by April 1965 the emerging core includes Banks, Moore, Jack Charlton, and Nobby Stiles.00:00 Meet Alf Ramsey01:49 Ipswich Miracle Title03:28 Ending Selection Committees05:20 England World Cup Woes06:50 Dour Yet Radical09:23 Xenophobia And Origins14:14 Was 1966 A Curse17:28 Ramsey Playing Roots20:36 Ipswich Tactical Experiments24:38 Brutalism And Football27:27 Brutalism Meets Football31:21 Ramsey Blueprint Emerges33:02 First Camp Shock Therapy36:43 Early Results and Doubts40:05 Brazil Trip Reality Check40:43 Curfew Crackdown46:16 Tactics Shift and New Spine47:51 Jack Charlton and Stiles Debut53:19 Foundations of 1966157. Brazil at the World Cup with Tim Vickery: Pelé, Maracanazo and Ancelotti's New Era
55:48||Season 1, Ep. 157Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this week's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by Tim Vickery to discuss the extraordinary story of Brazil at the World Cup.From the ultra-nationalism and hysteria of 1938, to the trauma of the Maracanazo in 1950, and the glorious Pelé years that forged a nation's identity between 1958 and 1970. Vickery traces every Brazilian World Cup campaign.Drawing on his new book Mundiales, Vickery offers a uniquely South American perspective on how the beautiful game's most celebrated nation has wrestled with myth, race, politics, and tactical evolution across nearly a century of football.With the 2026 World Cup on the horizon and Carlo Ancelotti now at the helm, can Brazil rediscover their identity, or has the ghost of 1970 become an impossible standard?00:00 Introduction — Tim Vickery Joins from Rio06:30 The Myth of Samba Football 13:00 1938, Radio, and Tropical Nationalism19:30 1950, The Maracanazo and a Nation's Trauma27:00 1954, The Battle of Bern and Revenge Football31:30 1958, Meticulous Planning, Pelé, and Redemption37:20 The Post-1970 Identity Crisis41:00 1982, Failure and a Lost Midfield Art47:00 The Domestic Decline of Brazilian Coaching49:30 Qatar 2022, Were Brazil Really That Far Off?52:00 Carlo Ancelotti and the 2026 World Cup156. The Greatest Champions League Finals of All Time
01:02:59||Season 1, Ep. 156Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this week's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper pick their six greatest European Cup and Champions League finals of all time.From the 127,000 who stayed to applaud Real Madrid's 7-3 demolition of Eintracht Frankfurt in 1960, to Ajax passing Juventus into submission in 1973 and Pep Guardiola's Barcelona spearheaded by Xavi flying to the title at Wembley in 2011. Wilson and Draper trace the tactical revolutions, romantic triumphs, and spectacular collapses that defined European football's greatest competition. With Arsenal facing PSG in this week's Champions League final, will Mikel Arteta join the elite list of managers who have won Europes’s elite competition or will Luis Enrique go back to back with PSG?00:00 Introduction — Champions League Final Week06:30 Real Madrid 7-3 Eintracht Frankfurt (1960)19:20 Ajax 1-0 Juventus (1973)34:50 AC Milan 4-0 Barcelona (1994) 42:15 Celtic 2-1 Inter Milan (1967) 53:40 Barcelona 3-1 Manchester United (2011) 58:10 Benfica 5-3 Real Madrid (1962) 01:03:20 Why Not 1999 or 2005? — And Can PSG Become an All-Time Great?
Patreon Bonus Sneak Peek | Inside England: Southgate’s Culture Reset, EPPP and the Tuchel Gamble
16:25|Listen to the Full Episode on the IWWIW Patreon here...In this Patreon special of It Was What It Was, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper speak with Jonathan Northcroft about the updated paperback edition of their Gareth Southgate book, retitled Inside England, which adds four new chapters. They discuss Southgate’s cultural reset, including the Royal Marines camp at Lympstone, and trace the deeper roots of England’s revival through reforms such as EPPP and England DNA, alongside figures like Dan Ashworth, Dave Redding, Trevor Brooking and Greg Dyke’s 2022 World Cup target. They cover how improved youth development, psychology and data-led penalty preparation helped transform England into a resilient tournament team, before assessing Euro 2024’s tactical problems and the FA’s decision to appoint Thomas Tuchel for “wow factor” and elite coaching. They end by weighing concerns about recent friendlies, squad management and camp culture heading into the World Cup.