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Frank and Stan Chats
Frank and Stan Chat No. 225
A riveting, well-informed and insightful chat with Kevin Edward Turner MBE, co-founder and co-artistic director of Company Chameleon, a highly regarded contemporary dance company based in Manchester. Kevin was a student of Frank's when he was a headteacher and re-connected in 2018 when Company Chameleon undertook dance workshops in some of the Coop's academies in Greater Manchester.
Kevin explains how his life was transformed and given purpose when the Northern Ballet Theatre Company provided a dance residence at the primary school he was attending. His obvious talent was seen immediately and fostered through the Trafford Dance Group, headed by the amazing Linda Coles. He created Company Chameleon in 2006 and it has grown from strength to strength. he's soon to accompany the dance company on a trip to Japan as part of the UK deputation for the World Expo. He is an inspiration.
But his life has been challenging especially when he faced serious mental health issues. The chat covers these and considers how important an active and vibrant arts curriculum is for all pupils and why this is sadly lacking in some schools. Stan reflects on a report published this week that makes clear how serious the drop in engagement is for students when they begin their secondary phase experience. We all offer some reasons for this. sadly, none of us were surprised by the findings.
Kevin then reflects on the many years he has engaged with young people at 42nd Street, a charity offering mental health support to young people aged 16-25 years. Yesterday was his final session with the young people. Their response and gratitude for his work were very moving. Kevin also considers the impact of free access to education that exists in Scotland and why this is a powerful force for economic and personal development.
Frank closes the chat with a reflection on the latest Sutton trust report that considers where social mobility is most successful. There appears to be a clear link between economic opportunities and the chances of achieving strong improvement in social mobility. He considers the lack of funding for FE and adult education and why the Early Years funding is important in that it supports parents/carers as well as the children.
It's a belting chat. We are incredibly proud to be able to chat for around 50 minutes with such inspiring guests. Please share the video with others. The messages about the arts, curriculum access and mental health are apposite.
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17. Frank and Stan Chat No. 245
38:25||Season 8, Ep. 17The final Frank and Stan Chat of 2025 sees them chatting with Jan Allen, a former Headteacher of a large secondary school in Rochdale and now the Director of the Education Community Partnership. Jan decided to step away from headship at a time when many would have decided to stay. She had achieved a Good Ofsted but felt she needed a new challenge. As someone committed to the community she served, she decided to try and support students and young people who face multiple and considerable challenges through working with voluntary agencies and charities. She admits the recent experiences have provided a deeper insight into the impact of poverty and the challenges young people face.Stan considers the Reform Party's proposals to utilise the spaces available in rarely used churches to help address the SEND crisis. He believes it is a crazy and ill-considered idea. Jan then reflects on the well-publicised Safeguarding report on the approaches to behaviour management at Mossbourne MVP in London. We all consider the response from the government's behaviour tsar over the issue and how the report author appears to have successfully held a secure handle on the issues. Frank then reflects on an article he recently published by Forum Strategy that focuses on the importance of the community.It's a wide-ranging discussion. We hope you enjoy it. We are back in early 2026. Happy festive greetings from us both.
16. Frank and Stan Chat No. 244
44:44||Season 8, Ep. 16Since 2020, the Frank and Stan Chat has been fortunate to have Eric Craven, a former Senior HMI, and more recently, an acclaimed poet, as a guest. Eric's observational and reflective approach makes his poems accessible, humorous and highly enjoyable. Last year, Stan composed a poem, and this year he offers the same again. So, four Eric poems and one from Stan, entwined with some general chat, generally focused on education and leadership. What more do you need to lift spirits as we head into the festive period. Enjoy.
16. Frank and Stan Chat No. 243
37:41||Season 8, Ep. 16This week we were fortunate to have Lois McClure, an amazing colleague who has worked at the Coop Group for 13 years and took an apprenticeship route into her career. She explains how she became aware at College that she didn't want to go to university even though there was pressure from the teachers to do so. She knew she wouldn’t enjoy 'going to lectures and then going back to a room to write an essay about it'. So, she embarked on a varied career with the Coop which saw her winning a number of national awards as an apprentice, speaking to large audiences about her work and the value she places on cooperative values as well as accepting any new challenge with a 'Yes mentality'. Some parts of the chat are worthy of sharing with students thinking of apprenticeships as well as emphasising the way she embraces new challenges. It is ok to feel nervous. Stan considers the learning he gained from a conference he attended the day before on workplace psychology and Frank draws attention to Alex, a follower of the chat who shared their Spotify Wrapped outcomes which saw over 450 minutes listening to our chat in the past year. Amazing. We would love to have this colleague along as a guest. With just two more Frank and Stan Chats before the Christmas break we have begun reflecting on some of the many highlights this year. We will share these in the two remaining editions. Thank you for your support. Enjoy!
15. Frank and Stan Chat No. 242
38:43||Season 8, Ep. 15In January 2021, the gents were connected to Henry May, a social entrepreneur based in Bogotá. Henry had moved to Colombia to begin social projects to improve the lives of less fortunate young people. He set up Coschool, a social enterprise focused on creating and implementing experiential learning programs. His teaching experience in London and his own personal education journey helped him realise how important the non-academic aspects of education were. He also knew how powerful sport could be in encouraging young people to engage more fully with education. He set up Coschool and the Huracan Foundation to achieve his ambition of a fairer life for all. Henry has a clearly defined education philosophy, and it is refreshing to hear a colleague explain so cogently what many educators believe in the UK but feel unable to express.Stan kicks off by explaining how shocked he was to find how AI can manipulate images for sexual gratification. The chat considers whether banning things helps. Henry then explains how character education, a young person's wellbeing and opportunities for social beneficial activities increasingly play an important part in Colombian education. Frank then considers how two words can change the responses to attendance data.It's a belting chat. Henry has agreed to return to our chat. We can't wait.Enjoy
14. Frank and Stan Chat No. 241
41:37||Season 8, Ep. 14One of the great joys for those of us involved in the Frank and Stan Chat is that some amazing educators are willing to spend some time chatting to us about the things that interest them. On occasions, we feel as though we know quite a bit about their area of interest, but today was slightly different. We were joined by Mark Philips, a former Senior HMI and National Lead for Music, who was able to draw on a vast range of experience and insight. The chat is useful for those with an interest in the arts, particularly, music but it will also be useful for those who worry about a balanced curriculum and whether opportunity is really for all.Stan gets things moving by considering the changes that will need to be made by schools to accommodate the demands of Martin's Law. Mark then reflects on the city of Manchester, its vibrancy, its welcome and the way it has transformed into an economic success story. Frank then considers the place of 'carousels' in the school curriculum. This is where Mark really comes to the fore.Enjoy and share.
13. Frank and Stan Chat SPOTLIGHT
45:23||Season 8, Ep. 13With over 250 weekly Frank and Stan Chat, including nearly 20 SPOTLIGHT editions, the bar is high in terms of guests making a highly positive impression. What becomes clear in this SPOTLIGHT with Les Walton is that there is a highly experienced colleague with a clear philosophy and a burning ambition to encourage collaboration and cooperation. In an earlier part of his life he led a Secondary school, a College, set up Schools North East and advised a number of PMs on education policy. If you have a spare 40 minutes I suggest you sit back and listen carefully to his insight and reflect on its relevance in your school or College. One of the very best Chats we have been fortunate to undertake. Enjoy.
12. Frank and Stan Chat No. 240
58:10||Season 8, Ep. 12This is a really important weekly chat because every year we invite Carolyn Eyre, a professional colleague well informed in the area of child protection and safeguarding. Her chats always cover areas that we have missed, and highlights changes that are afoot. She believes we are at the start of a storm, and many appear unaware that the storm is coming. Stan considers the likely impact of the government setting an expected national standard of 75% for children to reach 'a good level of development' in Early Years. He references Goodhart's law, which states, "when a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure". Carolyn then explains what changes and proposed laws, currently being progressed through Parliament, will have a significant impact on Keeping Children Safe. She also unpicks skilfully Ofsted's weaknesses in how safeguarding is inspected. Frank then considers the research published by the University of Manchester in October 2025, 'Lost learning: Prevalence, inequalities and outcomes of internal exclusion in mainstream secondary schools' by Emma Thornton, Qiqi Cheng, Ola Demkowicz and Neil Humphrey, which examines the reasons for isolation, who are more often given it and its impact on those students and those who are not. The results are surprising and challenging.You would expect us to say how good the chat is, but I suspect there is quite a lot in this discussion which would be of interest to many in schools, parents/carers and education leaders in general.
13. Frank and Stan Chat No. 239
36:32||Season 8, Ep. 13This week the gents chat with Alex Howarth, a Director of a large accountancy business and proud father of three young girls. Stan kicks things off considering the use of 'case sampling' in the new Ofsted school inspection Framework. He's concerned with the approach and how it could lead to weak evaluations by inspectors. Alex then reflects on the shift to more practical mathematics contained in the Francis Curriculum Review. Frank then considers the importance of oracy in the future and how disappointing it is to see the emphasis on traditional examinations being maintained. He suggests this counters the shift for oracy to be an integral part of all subjects. The chat then considers the Engalnd cricket team's chances of regaining the Ashes this winter.
11. Frank and Stan Chat No. 238
41:26||Season 8, Ep. 11It is a pleasure to welcome Chris Zarraga the Director of Schools North East, the largest regional organisation supporting schools in the country. We also become aware that SNE also supports a number of special schools. We discuss the origins of SNE and Chris' career journey before we venture into what's caught Stan's eyes this week? He focuses on Martin's Law and the implications it has for school leadership. Chris then reflects on the importance of relationships and how this is always a key feature of the major events SNE organises. Frank then closes the chat by considering the insight offered by Sam Gibbs in a recent TES article considering what effective CPD for teachers may look like. It's a wide ranging chat with much reflection on previous experiences as senior leaders and why having a colleague or at least someone leaders can turn to when requiring personal and professional support.