Cover Brand

An engineer-artist who builds soft skills training like a video game — and the brand problem that comes with it: how do you look trustworthy to the suits who sign the checks while staying genuinely weird for the Gen Z workforce who actually uses the thing?Sayre Blake is a systems engineer, concept artist, and founder of SkillSage (that's S-K-I-L-L-S-A-I-G-E — the AI is in the name) — a soft skills training platform built to replace the three-ring binder and the soul-sucking compliance video with something that actually works: character-driven, game-style training that lets your AI coach get ticked off at you for saying "I'll try" in an interview simulation.The brand problem at the center of this episode is one Ethan calls the brand category paradox: how do you fit in enough to be trusted and stand out enough to be noticed? For SkillSage, it's layered. The people who use the product want a video game with style and teeth. The people who pay for it want beige with rounded corners.MAIN TOPICS COVEREDThe brand category paradox — the tension between fitting in to signal credibility and standing out to signal difference, and why it's especially sharp in B2B SaaS where your user and your buyer aren't the same personBig B vs. little b brand — your reputation, offering, and story on one side; your logo, color, and font on the other; and why you need both even though people treat them like they're separate religionsThe blandification curve — why small brands start scrappy and distinctive and end up beige, and the few that manage to stay sharp or get sharper again as they grow (KFC, Salesforce, Aflac — yes, Aflac)The user/buyer split in corporate SaaS — dress for the banker when you're pitching; dress for the shop floor when you're deploying; SkillSaige already does this with two distinct UX environments, one for individuals and one for the corporate dashboardRaymond Loewy's MAYA principle — Most Advanced Yet Acceptable — and why your buyers want plus three percent, even when they're absolutely convinced they want plus thirtyADDITIONAL RESOURCESSayre Blake / SkillSage: skillsaige.comI Prevail — "Blank Space" (hard metal cover of Taylor Swift): worth the whiplashHow I Built This (NPR) — Ben Chestnut episode on MailChimpCover Brand Covers Playlist on Spotify: Cover Brand Covers PlaylistYour buyers and your users are two different people with two different wardrobes. Build for both. If this one gave you something to chew on — share it with someone navigating the same tightrope. Subscribe to Cover Brand, dig into the frameworks at appliedbrandscience.com, and we'll see you next week. Produced by BiCurean.com

John Tayer has run the Boulder Chamber for thirteen years. He knows the joke — the Chamber is your father's Oldsmobile — and he's not here to argue with it. This episode works through what you actually do when your brand has been aging with its customer instead of recruiting new ones, and the honest answer is more interesting than a rebrand.Ethan and John pull the Oldsmobile metaphor apart live: product vs. packaging, the fractionalization of the business community into sexier-but-narrower alternatives, and why the cross-sector connective tissue chambers actually provide doesn’t have a direct competitor — it just has an image problem. The most counterintuitive move on the table is the Buckley's cough syrup play: stop hiding the elephant and introduce it yourself. Tastes awful and that's why it works. The tie might be uncomfortable, but growth looks good on you.MAIN TOPICS COVEREDThe Oldsmobile Problem — why "your father's brand" is one of the oldest running jokes in chamber circles, and why the punchline isn't as funny when it's your membership numbersProduct vs. packaging — are the services out of sync with what modern businesses need, or is it the haircut? And what's the actual difference between those two diagnosesThe fractionalization of the business community — clean tech associations, startup weeks, quantum industry networks — none of them do what a chamber does, they just feel more like a TeslaThe Nike model vs. the Oldsmobile model — two strategies for how a legacy brand relates to time: stay anchored to a generation or stay anchored to a moment in someone's life Jaguar's full-stop rebrand — a year with no cars produced, a complete reinvention for the electric era, and what that extreme version tells you about the decision in front of every legacy institutionRefreshing honesty as a brand strategy — Buckley's cough syrup, "you'll swear by it and you'll swear at it," and why naming the elephant yourself is usually more disarming than trying to hide itThe research prescription — three practical moves: qualitative conversations with the prospects who aren't joining, competitive diagnosis of what competing organizations are giving people that you aren't, and the case for owning your history rather than polishing over itADDITIONAL RESOURCESJohn Tayer / Boulder Chamber: boulderchamber.comBuckley's Cough Syrup — https://www.buckleys.ca/about-buckleys/award-winning-advertising/Jaguar rebrand coverage — https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/dec/01/claws-are-out-as-jaguar-heads-down-ev-rebrand-roadCover Brand Covers Playlist on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6h4QzTqrtn9DIAPvdn1iCI?si=MR0mZB_4T9S7O-qM8w9h1QThe real R&D isn't in a lab — it's coffee with the people who said no to you. Go find out why. If this one made you look at your own brand's age lines differently, share it with someone carrying the same kind of legacy weight. Subscribe to Cover Brand, go deeper at appliedbrandscience.com, and we'll see you next week.Produced by BiCurean.com

A pillow that took six years to build, a third of your life to use, and one conversation to reframe — what happens when you've got a genuinely great product but the pricing, positioning, and place are all pulling in different directions?Siri Schubert-Nicolella is a wellness expert, bodywork practitioner, and the creator of a contoured natural latex pillow she designed from scratch — hand-carved with her husband in their home before finding a manufacturer — to address the epidemic of neck pain, TMJ dysfunction, and sleep disruption she was seeing in her clinical practice every day. She's got the expertise. She's got the product. Now she needs the brand strategy to match.This episode is a live working session in the truest sense: Ethan and Siri roll up their sleeves on one of the most common and most underestimated challenges in brand-building — figuring out your offering. Not just the product. The whole thing. And why getting the four P's wrong means even the best product in the world doesn't find its people.MAIN TOPICS COVEREDThe Offering Problem — why product alone isn't enough, and how Product, Price, Place, and Promotion have to work together as a system before any of them can work at allThe "energetically good price" test — Siri's honest gut check about whether she can say her price to a customer without cringing, and what that signals about brand confidence and positioning clarityNatural latex vs. memory foam — the product story hiding in plain sight: how latex is harvested from trees, turned into a soufflé of a pillow, and why that story is the justification for the premium price pointThe Goop-to-Walmart spectrum — why "online" isn't one place, and how two buyers at opposite ends of the market both shop on the internet but want completely different thingsEconomy, Mass, Premium, Luxury — the four market positions, and why landing in the right tier requires everything else in the mix to match (as Ethan explains from the Applied Brand Science framework: "if you're a premium brand, your merch should be Yeti, not cheap no-name stuff")The FDA detour question — the appeal of going the medical device route, and why that steep regulatory hill might not lead to the ideal customer anywayTwo paths forward — high-end wellness retail (think spas, boutique health studios, and Boulder's own backyard of health-conscious buyers) vs. licensing the patent to a medical company with doctor relationships already builtADDITIONAL RESOURCESCradle Wave Pillow -https://cradlewavepillow.comFlorence and the Machine — Cornflake Girl (Tori Amos cover): find it on the Cover Brand Covers Playlist on SpotifyYou might not have a pricing problem; you might have an offering problem. The price is just where it shows up.If this episode made you look at your own product differently — whether you're a founder, a practitioner, or someone who's been putting all their energy into promo while the other three P's quietly undermine everything — share it with someone who needs the reality check. Subscribe to Cover Brand, dig into the frameworks at appliedbrandscience.com, and come back next week for more of this.Produced by BiCurean.com

This week Ethan chats with John Pabon. John is a sustainability strategist, former McKinsey and UN consultant, and author of three books including The Great Greenwashing and the just-released Strategic Sustainability: A Pragmatic Blueprint for Responsible Business. This episode digs into one of the most stubborn gaps in brand communication: the chasm between what companies say about their values and what consumers actually do at the shelf. Ethan and John work through the tension live — from a Walmart factory program in China that used sex ed to boost productivity, to Patagonia's window display that leads with "everything we make pollutes," to why the 10% of survey respondents who say they don't care about the polar bears might be the most honest people in the room.Main Topics CoveredSpeak their language or don't speak — the fundamental rule of sustainability consulting: if you can't frame it as a business problem, nobody's listening. "Save the polar bears" doesn't open doors. Lost productivity does.Radical transparency as brand strategy — Patagonia's "everything we make pollutes," Avis's "we try harder," and Buckley's cough syrup ("it tastes terrible and that's why it works") — the brands that lead with the bad news are the ones that earn trustThe headline is the whole game — a riff on Porsche, Rolls Royce, and Guinness and why nobody reads below the fold — your headline better say the whole thingAtlassian, Williams F1, and the private jet problem — Mike Cannon-Brooks buys an F1 team and the sustainability world erupts, until he explains why. The lesson: getting out in front isn't enough. You have to explain the why or you've lost them anyway.The Great Greenwashing — John's second book dissects how brands, governments, celebrities, and individuals all do it — and why the companies investing millions into how to lie to you would make more money just fixing the problemThe say-do gap, live — why the survey that says your customers care about sustainability is the survey that will get you delisted in six months. Clorox Greenworks. End caps. Zero velocity.The 10% who don't care about the polar bears — why they're the most honest respondents in any focus group, and why converting them might be the smarter campaign target than preaching to the choirNike Considered and the long game — Ethan's firsthand account of a glue-free sneaker that screamed eco, the first Prius, and Nike's 20-year bet that sustainability would eventually just be baked into every Pegasus at Dick's Sporting Goods — invisible, assumed, defaultWhere this all lands in 15 years — John's prediction: sustainable products become the baseline, the companies that aren't playing ball are already dinosaurs, and the consumer won't have to think about it at allAdditional ResourcesKeep up with John at his website johnpabon.comCover Brand Covers Playlist on SpotifyYou can't sell products on a dead planet — and you can't build a brand on a lie that people can already see through. The smarter play has always been honesty. It just takes more guts than most brand teams are willing to bring to the brief. If this one made you rethink how your brand talks about the stuff it's not proud of, share it with the person in your org who needs to hear it most. Subscribe to Cover Brand, go deeper at appliedbrandscience.com, and come back next week.Produced by BiCurean.com

Two brands, one expert, and a mission that makes being the expert feel like a contradiction — how do you build something institutional out of something that personal?Carmell Clark is an executive coach with 25+ years of experience, creator of the Core Self-Discovery curriculum, and founder of the Center for Transformational Influence (CTI) — an organization built to help individuals and companies break free from unhealthy deference to authority. This episode digs into one of the trickiest brand architecture challenges out there: how do you grow a personal brand into an institutional one when your whole philosophy is against the cult of personality? Ethan and Carmell work through the tension live — exploring brand equity, the psychology of followership, and what it actually takes to step into the spotlight you built to dismantle.MAIN TOPICS COVEREDThe CTI Paradox — running an organization whose mission is to dismantle guru culture while being, unavoidably, its charismatic and credentialed founderBrand Architecture 101: Personal Brand vs. Institutional Brand — when to run them in parallel, and when the personal brand has to come firstWhy most humans are wired to follow, not lead — the evolutionary case for followership, Derek Sivers' 3-minute TED Talk "How to Start a Movement," and why fighting this truth will make you "clenched and bitter"The Geico Gecko Principle — how a cockney-accented lizard tripled a business, and what that tells you about how little people actually want to think about brandsBrené Brown, Nancy Duarte, and the Receding Founder — a playbook for how expert-led brands eventually outgrow their founders: Duarte, Decker Communications, Bain, Ford, Philip Morris — names on the door first, institutions laterTony Robbins vs. Richard Branson: two models for founder-led brands — the spectrum from "Oprah, Oprah, Oprah" to "Virgin Everything" and where CTI might land"Suck it up, buttercup" — the advice Carmell didn't want but needed — embrace the spotlight to teach people how to hold power without being consumed by it; use yourself as the living case studyAudre Lorde on privilege and power — and why the answer isn't to minimize your influence but to step into it consciously, then use it to give power backThe path forward for CTI — Carmell Clark front and center now, CTI built deliberately in the background, until the brand is the thing and Carmell is the lore4. ADDITIONAL RESOURCESCarmell Clark: carmellclark.comBrené Brown: brenebrown.comNancy Duarte / Duarte Inc.: duarte.com — Slideology and ResonateDerek Sivers — "How to Start a Movement": ted.com/talks/derek_sivers_how_to_start_a_movementMonty Python's Life of Brian — you know where to find itCrucial Conversations (Harvard Negotiation Project)Cover Brand Covers Playlist on Spotify: Cover Brand Covers PlaylistYou can't build an institution out of yourself if you keep fighting the fact that you're the institution. Step into it. Use it. That's how the work gets further. If this episode made you tilt your head — whether you're a coach, a founder, or a brand trying to outgrow its creator — share it with someone who needs to hear it. Subscribe to Cover Brand, explore the frameworks at appliedbrandscience.com, and come back next week for more of this.Produced by BiCurean.com

What if the reason your marketing isn't landing isn't your message — it's that you're still treating people like targets instead of humans?In this episode of Cover Brand, Ethan Decker welcomes back Chelsea Burns, brand ethicist and relational psychologist at The Marketing Psychologist. Chelsea's work sits at the intersection of consumer neuroscience, relational psychology, and ethical influence — and she's got a bone to pick with the way business strips the human out of everything, starting with the word "leads." Together, Ethan and Chelsea explore why 95% of brand decisions happen underground, why trust is never a checkbox, and what it actually takes to build a brand people don't just buy from — but belong to.If you've ever wondered why your customers say one thing and do another, or why a brand that seemed bulletproof can lose its audience almost overnight, this episode will reframe how you think about the relationship between brand and buyer.Main Topics CoveredChelsea's core thesis: business dehumanizes by default — and why "leads," "targets," and "consumers" are symptoms of a deeper problemWhy 95% of brand decisions happen in the subconscious limbic system, and what that means for how you build mental availability with buyersThe tree metaphor: brand is the root system (underground, sensed but unseen); marketing is the trunk and branches — you can't have healthy growth without healthy rootsChelsea's four-pillar Belong Brand framework: Consent → Reciprocity → Trust → Belonging — and why stopping at "trusted brand" is like finishing three legs of a relay raceFake countdown timers, inflated "original prices," and urgency manipulation — why these tactics shatter consent and what they signal to buyers about your real intentionsRobert Cialdini's principle of reciprocity from Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion — and why a garbage lead magnet is the opposite of an equal value exchangeWhy trust is never a checkbox — every touchpoint is either building it or breaking it, and the Edelman Trust Barometer isn't telling us anything snake oil salesmen didn't already know in 1880Target's DEI retreat as a live case study in belonging collapse — when a brand flips the script, buyers don't just feel disappointed, they feel dupedVW's emissions scandal as the counterpoint — a massive trust breach, billions in damage, and yet currently the number one automaker in the world. Big brands have more foundation to absorb shocks. That doesn't mean you should test it.The gap between stated values and actual behavior — why Gen Z says they'll only buy from values-aligned brands and then they're all on Temu and hitting Taco Bell for a $2 burritoEthan's leaky lazy brain framework: we don't read ingredient lists, we don't open the hood before buying a $50,000 car, and we absolutely do not read the manual afterTriple Stuff Oreos. We went there.Additional ResourcesChelsea Burns — themarketingpsychologist.coChelsea Burns on LinkedIn —https://www.linkedin.com/in/chelseaburns26/Robert Cialdini, Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion — the original framework behind ethical reciprocityEdelman Trust Barometer — edelman.com/trustYuka app (referenced by Chelsea for scanning food ingredients) — yuka.ioCover Brand Covers Playlist (Spotify) — featuring Imagine Dragons' "Blank Space" — Listen hereYour buyers are not making rational decisions in a spreadsheet. They're running on leaky, lazy brains, shaped by emotion, context, and whether your brand makes them feel like the person they're trying to become. Build for that. Subscribe to Cover Brand for more insights into the world of branding and marketing, and head over to appliedbrandscience.com to dig deeper into the science behind what actually drives brand growth.Produced by BiCurean.com

What does it mean to be out — fully, authentically, unapologetically yourself — especially when the culture around you keeps trying to make you invisible?In this episode of Cover Brand, Ethan Decker welcomes Jamie Rich, a community builder with 23 years of experience producing live cultural events, including founding the Kansas City LGBT Film Festival. Jamie is now launching Out Here Together, an online wisdom and resource exchange platform built specifically for gay men over 55 — a group that is statistically among the most isolated and underserved populations in America.Ethan and Jamie explore what it really takes to build a brand around community: why you have to start with one concrete thing before chasing the full Kraken of tentacles, how to calibrate your expectations for lurkers vs. stewards, and why the most powerful community brands don't bond people over their wounds — they bond them over their potential.If you've ever tried to build something for a niche audience and worried it was "too specific," this episode will change how you think about focus. Specificity isn't exclusion. It's an invitation.Main Topics CoveredCallum Scott's cover duet with Whitney Houston — and what it means to take something universal and make it feel newWhy Jamie is building Out Here Together for gay men over 55 — the isolation statistics that make the need undeniableHow the Kansas City LGBT Film Festival drew straight audiences — and what that teaches us about niche brands with universal appealThe danger of "bonding over the wound" and how community brands must lead with aspiration, not grievanceEthan's "ladder of abstraction" — why abstract goals like "connection" and "visibility" must be grounded in concrete, purchasable, doable thingsThe six-stage community journey: visitor → audience → participant → collaborator → stakeholder → stewardThe 99-1 rule: why most people lurk, and how to build your model around that realityWhy Coca-Cola couldn't launch sparkling water — and what brand stretch has to do with Jamie's growth plansEthan's advice: pick one nucleus (a podcast, a course, a fireside chat series) and do it 250 times before you branch outThe "third act pivot" — stories of people who found their second (or third) career after 55, and why those stories are the beaconHeated Rivalry and the gay hockey romance that set social media on fire — proof that radical specificity can reach everyoneAdditional ResourcesOut Here Together — outHeretogether.comCallum Scott's cover of Whitney Houston's "I Want to Dance with Somebody" — available on YouTube/VevoCover Brand Covers Playlist (Spotify) — https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6h4QzTqrtn9DIAPvdn1iCI?si=MR0mZB_4T9S7O-qM8w9h1QHow I Built This with Guy Raz — referenced as a model for long-game community/content buildingHard Fork from The New York Times — referenced as an example of deep niche content that eventually scales to live eventsYou can't build a community for everyone. You build it for someone. Start with the people who have nowhere else to go, give them one concrete reason to show up, and let the rest of the petals open on their own. Subscribe to Cover Brand for more insights into the world of branding and marketing — and head to appliedbrandscience.com to dig deeper into the science behind why focus always wins.Produced by BiCurean.com

Are you spending weeks trying to find a brand name that explains exactly what you do? Stop it. Your buyers are mental misers. They aren't parsing the literal meaning of your name; they just need a reliable shortcut.In this episode of Cover Brand, Ethan Decker welcomes Dror Yaron, a life coach working to humanize business. Dror is struggling with a literal name ("Ethics Coach") that feels heavy and attracts the wrong crowd. Ethan and Dror break down the two ways to name a brand: the "nail on the head" method (like 5-Hour Energy) and the "evocative shortcut" method (like Starbucks or Swiffer).They also explore the frustrating but normal reality of buyer personas. If you've ever felt like your real-world customers don't match the avatar you built in a conference room, this episode will retune your instincts. You'll learn why you should lean into your niche to get attention, even if your actual customer base is delightfully messy.Main Topics Covered:Berry Sakharof’s cover of Elvis Presley and the beauty of keeping your accentThe danger of using literal, descriptive names for your businessWhy the world's most famous brands (Apple, Starbucks, McDonald's) have names completely unrelated to their categoriesThe two paths of naming: The "Nail on the Head" vs. The "Evocative Shortcut"How P&G shifted from evocative names (Tide, Dawn) to unique, searchable names (Febreze, Swiffer)Why your real-world clients will always ruin your neatly defined "buyer persona"The Dude Wipes phenomenon: Why targeting a specific niche doesn't mean you won't attract everyone elseHow to use an exclusionary target to get attention (lessons from a CMU robotics kit for middle school girls)Links to Additional Resources:Dror Yaron on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/droryaron/Carnegie Mellon University Robotics Institute – https://www.ri.cmu.edu/Hummingbird Robotics Kit – https://www.birdbraintechnologies.com/Dude Wipes – The brand science example of sloppy buyer realityCover Brand Covers Playlist (Spotify) – Featuring Berry Sakharof's "I Can't Help Falling In Love With You" -https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6h4QzTqrtn9DIAPvdn1iCI?si=MR0mZB_4T9S7O-qM8w9h1QStop trying to make your brand name explain your entire business model. Instead, go for a bike ride, find a sticky shortcut, and let your reputation do the explaining. Subscribe to Cover Brand for more insights into the world of branding and marketing. Share this episode with a friend who could benefit from these strategies, and head over to appliedbrandscience.com to dive deeper into the principles of brand science. Your success starts here!Produced by BiCurean.com