Cover Brand

Two brands, one founder, and one of the most interesting brand architecture problems you'll hear on this show — how do you launch something brand new when your most valuable asset is the reputation you built doing something else? Rachel Lederman has spent eighteen years running Sweet Sadie Productions, a creative studio behind commercial, experiential, and live work for clients ranging from Kraft to Broadway. Now she's launched Fawn, a white-glove concierge service for film industry players descending on Boulder, Colorado for Sundance's first-ever non-Utah run in forty years. The puzzle she brings to the table: how do you build Fawn into its own thing when the best door-opener you have is Sweet Sadie's name?Ethan and Rachel work through this live — figuring out when to invoke a parent brand, when to let the new one stand on its own, and what it actually looks like to use an existing relationship network to launch something new without just folding it back into what you already are.MAIN TOPICS COVEREDFawn, powered by Sweet Sadie — the brand architecture question underneath it all: when does a spinoff benefit from naming its parent, and when does that connection become a ceiling instead of a credential?The relationship business reality — in an industry where people hire people, not logos, your network is your distribution channel; the question is whether you're using it intentionally or just hoping it trickles overWhy your two hardest launch questions are usually the same question — Rachel came in with "how do I get customers" and "how do I separate the brands" and it turns out the answer to both lives in the same placeThe new-venture credibility gap — Fawn has never run a Sundance, so there are no testimonials, no case studies, no proof; Ethan and Rachel work through what you do when you don't have receipts yet but you do have eighteen years of them next doorSundance in Boulder — why the festival's move from Park City to Boulder for January 2027 is the window, and how insider local knowledge plus production expertise is the actual product Fawn is sellingThe merch moment — Rachel shows off Fawn's laser-cut metal keychains with a skeleton key and room number 27, and Ethan makes the case that good merch is a brand statement and bad merch is just money on fireThe Prince-Sinead-cover-of-his-own-song rabbit hole — because of courseADDITIONAL RESOURCESRachel Lederman / Sweet Sadie Productions: sweetsadie.comFawn: hello@thefawn.coCover Brand Covers Playlist on Spotify: Cover Brand Covers PlaylistCover song this episode: Prince's live cover of Nothing Compares to You — his own song, given to Sinead O'Connor, then reclaimed live with Rosie Gaines. Very meta. Very Prince.Explore more on brand architecture and how brands grow at appliedbrandscience.com. If this episode made you think about a launch you're sitting on or a spinoff you've been afraid to name — share it with someone who needs to hear it. Subscribe to Cover Brand and we'll see you next week. Produced by BiCurean.com

What if the person who knows your work best got to ask the questions? That's this episode.Aicila Lewis has been producing Cover Brand since before Ethan knew it was live. She's heard every episode, watched the frameworks land in real time, and spent years telling Ethan he needed to bottle up those coffee conversations where someone walks away going, wait, that's all I had to know? For episode 69, she finally gets to ask some of the questions she's been sitting on.The conversation covers how Cover Brand found its format, what Ethan keeps hearing from callers across 68 episodes, and some of the nuance behind the brand science.MAIN TOPICS COVEREDHow Cover Brand got it’s start. The biggest recurring theme: nobody is thinking about your brand. Eleanor Roosevelt said it about people, it's even more true about toilet paper. Nobody knows the color of the packaging.The brand category paradox — you have to fit into the category before you get to stand out in it. Parchment paper and toilet paper are not interchangeable. Neither are your category and your differentiation.The Geico gecko principle — your distinctiveness doesn't have to mean anything. Nobody knows the gecko's backstory. Nobody can tell you the service differences between Geico, State Farm, and Allstate. The cockney lizard still tripled the business.Consistency as strategy — you are bored of your own marketing long before 99% of your future customers have ever seen it once. Ethan wears the orange tracksuit to business events on purpose.When the hard work isn't knowing what to do — the real challenge for a lot of callers is letting go of the thing they're good at to make room for the thing they need to do nextBrand story and brand purpose: three places where the internal stuff actually does its job — employee alignment, the 0.1% of category mavens who want to go down the rabbit hole, and the North Star effect that quietly shapes everything without anyone knowing whyThe loyalty myth — you can love Tiffany and own one charm bracelet. That love does not help Tiffany's revenue. Brand friends beat brand lovers for volume, every time. Jeff Leitner said it best: love is great, but it ain't where the money's at.ADDITIONAL RESOURCESAicila Lewis / BiCurean: bicurean.comUncensored CMO with Jon Evans: uncensoredcmo.comDerek Sivers, How to Start a Movement: ted.com/talks/derek_sivers_how_to_start_a_movementSubscribe, share it with someone building something, and come find the frameworks at appliedbrandscience.com. Back next week.Produced by BiCurean.com

How do you turn people who stumbled into the Farmer's Market on a nice Saturday into more engaged partcipants?Mackenzie Sehlke is the executive director of the Boulder County Farmers Markets, a 40-year-old nonprofit running seasonal markets in Boulder and Longmont, plus a food hub that's been quietly building for six years. She came in wanting to know how to convert casual visitors into lifelong fans. What she got was permission to stop wanting that — at least as a primary strategy.MAIN TOPICS COVEREDThe banana curve — most of your buyers are light buyers, for any brand, any event, any category. Most Harley riders only ever buy one Harley. For a farmers market in a tourist town, that curve skews even further. Don’t curse the climate, plan for it. Reacquaintance over retention. The ongoing reminder that you exist, that it's Saturday, that you like going to the market. Even the biggest brands have to keep tapping you on the shoulder.Behavioral loyalty vs. emotional loyalty — someone can love a brand they only visit once a year. Someone else can show up every week out of pure habit. Delight as strategy — the small, considered thing that turns a fine morning into a story someone tells. It's the detail that tells people someone was paying attention.Cover Song: Teenage Dirtbag (Wheatus), as covered by The Parcels live at Red Rocks. May only exist as shaky iPhone footage. We're working on it.Additional resources: Boulder County Farmers Markets at bcfm.org. The banana curve gets its full treatment in the Applied Brand Science book and on the podcast. Share this one with anyone who's exhausted from trying to manufacture superfans out of a crowd that just wanted a good Saturday.Produced by BiCurean.com

An engineer-artist who builds soft skills training like a video game — and the brand problem that comes with it: how do you look trustworthy to the suits who sign the checks while staying genuinely weird for the Gen Z workforce who actually uses the thing?Sayre Blake is a systems engineer, concept artist, and founder of SkillSage (that's S-K-I-L-L-S-A-I-G-E — the AI is in the name) — a soft skills training platform built to replace the three-ring binder and the soul-sucking compliance video with something that actually works: character-driven, game-style training that lets your AI coach get ticked off at you for saying "I'll try" in an interview simulation.The brand problem at the center of this episode is one Ethan calls the brand category paradox: how do you fit in enough to be trusted and stand out enough to be noticed? For SkillSage, it's layered. The people who use the product want a video game with style and teeth. The people who pay for it want beige with rounded corners.MAIN TOPICS COVEREDThe brand category paradox — the tension between fitting in to signal credibility and standing out to signal difference, and why it's especially sharp in B2B SaaS where your user and your buyer aren't the same personBig B vs. little b brand — your reputation, offering, and story on one side; your logo, color, and font on the other; and why you need both even though people treat them like they're separate religionsThe blandification curve — why small brands start scrappy and distinctive and end up beige, and the few that manage to stay sharp or get sharper again as they grow (KFC, Salesforce, Aflac — yes, Aflac)The user/buyer split in corporate SaaS — dress for the banker when you're pitching; dress for the shop floor when you're deploying; SkillSaige already does this with two distinct UX environments, one for individuals and one for the corporate dashboardRaymond Loewy's MAYA principle — Most Advanced Yet Acceptable — and why your buyers want plus three percent, even when they're absolutely convinced they want plus thirtyADDITIONAL RESOURCESSayre Blake / SkillSage: skillsaige.comI Prevail — "Blank Space" (hard metal cover of Taylor Swift): worth the whiplashHow I Built This (NPR) — Ben Chestnut episode on MailChimpCover Brand Covers Playlist on Spotify: Cover Brand Covers PlaylistYour buyers and your users are two different people with two different wardrobes. Build for both. If this one gave you something to chew on — share it with someone navigating the same tightrope. Subscribe to Cover Brand, dig into the frameworks at appliedbrandscience.com, and we'll see you next week. Produced by BiCurean.com

John Tayer has run the Boulder Chamber for thirteen years. He knows the joke — the Chamber is your father's Oldsmobile — and he's not here to argue with it. This episode works through what you actually do when your brand has been aging with its customer instead of recruiting new ones, and the honest answer is more interesting than a rebrand.Ethan and John pull the Oldsmobile metaphor apart live: product vs. packaging, the fractionalization of the business community into sexier-but-narrower alternatives, and why the cross-sector connective tissue chambers actually provide doesn’t have a direct competitor — it just has an image problem. The most counterintuitive move on the table is the Buckley's cough syrup play: stop hiding the elephant and introduce it yourself. Tastes awful and that's why it works. The tie might be uncomfortable, but growth looks good on you.MAIN TOPICS COVEREDThe Oldsmobile Problem — why "your father's brand" is one of the oldest running jokes in chamber circles, and why the punchline isn't as funny when it's your membership numbersProduct vs. packaging — are the services out of sync with what modern businesses need, or is it the haircut? And what's the actual difference between those two diagnosesThe fractionalization of the business community — clean tech associations, startup weeks, quantum industry networks — none of them do what a chamber does, they just feel more like a TeslaThe Nike model vs. the Oldsmobile model — two strategies for how a legacy brand relates to time: stay anchored to a generation or stay anchored to a moment in someone's life Jaguar's full-stop rebrand — a year with no cars produced, a complete reinvention for the electric era, and what that extreme version tells you about the decision in front of every legacy institutionRefreshing honesty as a brand strategy — Buckley's cough syrup, "you'll swear by it and you'll swear at it," and why naming the elephant yourself is usually more disarming than trying to hide itThe research prescription — three practical moves: qualitative conversations with the prospects who aren't joining, competitive diagnosis of what competing organizations are giving people that you aren't, and the case for owning your history rather than polishing over itADDITIONAL RESOURCESJohn Tayer / Boulder Chamber: boulderchamber.comBuckley's Cough Syrup — https://www.buckleys.ca/about-buckleys/award-winning-advertising/Jaguar rebrand coverage — https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/dec/01/claws-are-out-as-jaguar-heads-down-ev-rebrand-roadCover Brand Covers Playlist on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6h4QzTqrtn9DIAPvdn1iCI?si=MR0mZB_4T9S7O-qM8w9h1QThe real R&D isn't in a lab — it's coffee with the people who said no to you. Go find out why. If this one made you look at your own brand's age lines differently, share it with someone carrying the same kind of legacy weight. Subscribe to Cover Brand, go deeper at appliedbrandscience.com, and we'll see you next week.Produced by BiCurean.com

A pillow that took six years to build, a third of your life to use, and one conversation to reframe — what happens when you've got a genuinely great product but the pricing, positioning, and place are all pulling in different directions?Siri Schubert-Nicolella is a wellness expert, bodywork practitioner, and the creator of a contoured natural latex pillow she designed from scratch — hand-carved with her husband in their home before finding a manufacturer — to address the epidemic of neck pain, TMJ dysfunction, and sleep disruption she was seeing in her clinical practice every day. She's got the expertise. She's got the product. Now she needs the brand strategy to match.This episode is a live working session in the truest sense: Ethan and Siri roll up their sleeves on one of the most common and most underestimated challenges in brand-building — figuring out your offering. Not just the product. The whole thing. And why getting the four P's wrong means even the best product in the world doesn't find its people.MAIN TOPICS COVEREDThe Offering Problem — why product alone isn't enough, and how Product, Price, Place, and Promotion have to work together as a system before any of them can work at allThe "energetically good price" test — Siri's honest gut check about whether she can say her price to a customer without cringing, and what that signals about brand confidence and positioning clarityNatural latex vs. memory foam — the product story hiding in plain sight: how latex is harvested from trees, turned into a soufflé of a pillow, and why that story is the justification for the premium price pointThe Goop-to-Walmart spectrum — why "online" isn't one place, and how two buyers at opposite ends of the market both shop on the internet but want completely different thingsEconomy, Mass, Premium, Luxury — the four market positions, and why landing in the right tier requires everything else in the mix to match (as Ethan explains from the Applied Brand Science framework: "if you're a premium brand, your merch should be Yeti, not cheap no-name stuff")The FDA detour question — the appeal of going the medical device route, and why that steep regulatory hill might not lead to the ideal customer anywayTwo paths forward — high-end wellness retail (think spas, boutique health studios, and Boulder's own backyard of health-conscious buyers) vs. licensing the patent to a medical company with doctor relationships already builtADDITIONAL RESOURCESCradle Wave Pillow -https://cradlewavepillow.comFlorence and the Machine — Cornflake Girl (Tori Amos cover): find it on the Cover Brand Covers Playlist on SpotifyYou might not have a pricing problem; you might have an offering problem. The price is just where it shows up.If this episode made you look at your own product differently — whether you're a founder, a practitioner, or someone who's been putting all their energy into promo while the other three P's quietly undermine everything — share it with someone who needs the reality check. Subscribe to Cover Brand, dig into the frameworks at appliedbrandscience.com, and come back next week for more of this.Produced by BiCurean.com

Every few years, someone slaps a new name on the same old thing — and suddenly there's a conference, a certification, and software to go with it. Is account-based marketing actually a discipline, or is it just marketing with a better LinkedIn bio? And if you can't describe what you do without a subgenre, is the subgenre helping you — or just hiding the ball?Laura Dodds is a digital marketing and demand generation leader and problem-solver-for-hire. She's back on Cover Brand after her breakout run on the On Brand with Jimmy Fallon series for a proper shop talk: the practitioner-level debate about what actually moves the needle in marketing versus what's just posturing dressed up in a framework. The episode covers the proliferation of marketing subgenres, when a new name is genuinely useful versus just tree-peeing, and why starting with the goal and the customer will always beat starting with the system.Main Topics CoveredCover song: "Happier Than Ever" (Loveless cover of Billie Eilish) — Laura's thesis: every song is better as a pop punk cover. Ethan is skeptical. The jury remains out.What Laura actually does — why she resists a tidy job description, and what "marketing problem solver" looks like in practiceThe case against marketing subgenres — ABM, growth hacking, lifecycle marketing, demand gen: are these real disciplines or just old ideas in new clothes?When a new name is actually worth it — shopper marketing, digital marketing, and the cases where the label earns its keepWhy marketers keep inventing subgenres — vendors, academics, analysts, and the very human need to pee on a treeLaws vs. Levers at Applied Brand Science — how to separate what's always true from what depends on your situationHolistic marketing, TM — Laura coins a term live on mic, immediately regrets it, and Ethan leans right inAdditional ResourcesLaura Dodds — LinkedIn (search Laura Dodds, Houston TX)Cover Brand Covers Playlist on Spotify — Listen hereCover Brand: On Brand with Jimmy Fallon series — search the Cover Brand feedThe framework isn't the strategy — it's just someone else's tree. Start with the goal. Start with the customer. Everything else is a lever.Subscribe to Cover Brand wherever you get your podcasts, share it with the colleague who just forwarded you a deck full of ABM jargon, and go deeper at appliedbrandscience.com.Produced by BiCurean.com

This week Ethan chats with John Pabon. John is a sustainability strategist, former McKinsey and UN consultant, and author of three books including The Great Greenwashing and the just-released Strategic Sustainability: A Pragmatic Blueprint for Responsible Business. This episode digs into one of the most stubborn gaps in brand communication: the chasm between what companies say about their values and what consumers actually do at the shelf. Ethan and John work through the tension live — from a Walmart factory program in China that used sex ed to boost productivity, to Patagonia's window display that leads with "everything we make pollutes," to why the 10% of survey respondents who say they don't care about the polar bears might be the most honest people in the room.Main Topics CoveredSpeak their language or don't speak — the fundamental rule of sustainability consulting: if you can't frame it as a business problem, nobody's listening. "Save the polar bears" doesn't open doors. Lost productivity does.Radical transparency as brand strategy — Patagonia's "everything we make pollutes," Avis's "we try harder," and Buckley's cough syrup ("it tastes terrible and that's why it works") — the brands that lead with the bad news are the ones that earn trustThe headline is the whole game — a riff on Porsche, Rolls Royce, and Guinness and why nobody reads below the fold — your headline better say the whole thingAtlassian, Williams F1, and the private jet problem — Mike Cannon-Brooks buys an F1 team and the sustainability world erupts, until he explains why. The lesson: getting out in front isn't enough. You have to explain the why or you've lost them anyway.The Great Greenwashing — John's second book dissects how brands, governments, celebrities, and individuals all do it — and why the companies investing millions into how to lie to you would make more money just fixing the problemThe say-do gap, live — why the survey that says your customers care about sustainability is the survey that will get you delisted in six months. Clorox Greenworks. End caps. Zero velocity.The 10% who don't care about the polar bears — why they're the most honest respondents in any focus group, and why converting them might be the smarter campaign target than preaching to the choirNike Considered and the long game — Ethan's firsthand account of a glue-free sneaker that screamed eco, the first Prius, and Nike's 20-year bet that sustainability would eventually just be baked into every Pegasus at Dick's Sporting Goods — invisible, assumed, defaultWhere this all lands in 15 years — John's prediction: sustainable products become the baseline, the companies that aren't playing ball are already dinosaurs, and the consumer won't have to think about it at allAdditional ResourcesKeep up with John at his website johnpabon.comCover Brand Covers Playlist on SpotifyYou can't sell products on a dead planet — and you can't build a brand on a lie that people can already see through. The smarter play has always been honesty. It just takes more guts than most brand teams are willing to bring to the brief. If this one made you rethink how your brand talks about the stuff it's not proud of, share it with the person in your org who needs to hear it most. Subscribe to Cover Brand, go deeper at appliedbrandscience.com, and come back next week.Produced by BiCurean.com

Two brands, one expert, and a mission that makes being the expert feel like a contradiction — how do you build something institutional out of something that personal?Carmell Clark is an executive coach with 25+ years of experience, creator of the Core Self-Discovery curriculum, and founder of the Center for Transformational Influence (CTI) — an organization built to help individuals and companies break free from unhealthy deference to authority. This episode digs into one of the trickiest brand architecture challenges out there: how do you grow a personal brand into an institutional one when your whole philosophy is against the cult of personality? Ethan and Carmell work through the tension live — exploring brand equity, the psychology of followership, and what it actually takes to step into the spotlight you built to dismantle.MAIN TOPICS COVEREDThe CTI Paradox — running an organization whose mission is to dismantle guru culture while being, unavoidably, its charismatic and credentialed founderBrand Architecture 101: Personal Brand vs. Institutional Brand — when to run them in parallel, and when the personal brand has to come firstWhy most humans are wired to follow, not lead — the evolutionary case for followership, Derek Sivers' 3-minute TED Talk "How to Start a Movement," and why fighting this truth will make you "clenched and bitter"The Geico Gecko Principle — how a cockney-accented lizard tripled a business, and what that tells you about how little people actually want to think about brandsBrené Brown, Nancy Duarte, and the Receding Founder — a playbook for how expert-led brands eventually outgrow their founders: Duarte, Decker Communications, Bain, Ford, Philip Morris — names on the door first, institutions laterTony Robbins vs. Richard Branson: two models for founder-led brands — the spectrum from "Oprah, Oprah, Oprah" to "Virgin Everything" and where CTI might land"Suck it up, buttercup" — the advice Carmell didn't want but needed — embrace the spotlight to teach people how to hold power without being consumed by it; use yourself as the living case studyAudre Lorde on privilege and power — and why the answer isn't to minimize your influence but to step into it consciously, then use it to give power backThe path forward for CTI — Carmell Clark front and center now, CTI built deliberately in the background, until the brand is the thing and Carmell is the lore4. ADDITIONAL RESOURCESCarmell Clark: carmellclark.comBrené Brown: brenebrown.comNancy Duarte / Duarte Inc.: duarte.com — Slideology and ResonateDerek Sivers — "How to Start a Movement": ted.com/talks/derek_sivers_how_to_start_a_movementMonty Python's Life of Brian — you know where to find itCrucial Conversations (Harvard Negotiation Project)Cover Brand Covers Playlist on Spotify: Cover Brand Covers PlaylistYou can't build an institution out of yourself if you keep fighting the fact that you're the institution. Step into it. Use it. That's how the work gets further. If this episode made you tilt your head — whether you're a coach, a founder, or a brand trying to outgrow its creator — share it with someone who needs to hear it. Subscribe to Cover Brand, explore the frameworks at appliedbrandscience.com, and come back next week for more of this.Produced by BiCurean.com