cover art for Active Travel Media Awards - the interviews part one

Active Travel Podcast

Active Travel Media Awards - the interviews part one

Season 2, Ep. 1

Laura Laker interviews Fare City's Charles Critchell, the Active Travel Academy Media Awards' only double winner. In 2019 Charles won our investigations/long-term follow-up category for his piece, Burning Bridges, on the closure of Hammersmith Bridge to motor traffic, and in 2020 won the campaign or research category for a two-parter on non-commercial use of cargo bikes. Judges enjoyed the detail and research that went into Charles' two pieces.

Charles founded Fare City, an urban transport think tank, in October 2019 after quitting his job as an architect. Although not a media organisation the original research and storytelling that went into both pieces won Charles two awards for his work. Charles talks to the Active Travel Podcast just as Fare City is about to become incorporated into a community interest company.

Charles talks to Laura about his Fare City project, about chasing a stern businessman across Hammersmith Bridge in the name of research, and how one of his award-winning pieces is about to become a research paper.

Charles' winning pieces can be found here:

Burning Bridges (2019 winner)

Sharing the Load (2020 winner)

Part one:

Part two:

Transcription of interview

Laura Laker 0:02  

Hi and welcome back to the active travel podcast, and to the start of our second season. So we had a bit of a break from Autumn in 2020 to fit in the Media Awards and various other things that we were working on but we are now back for 2021 with season two. So, we are kicking off with a look back at those Active Travel Media Awards from November, and interviewing some of the winners. We started the Media Awards in 2019 to recognise the impact that media reporting has on active travel and wanted to recognise in particular, some of the good practice in the field. The second annual awards event was virtual this time, we had nine categories in 2019 with a special award category for Brian Deegan and Bob Davis for ideas with beers. Charles Critchell is the Active Travel Media Awards' only double winner, picking up awards in 2019 and 2020 both in categories recognising in depth research or investigative work. Charles is the founder of fare city, which is a transport Think Tank based in London. Now fare city describes itself as a team of built environment professionals advocating for sustainable transport and empowering individuals to make reasoned travel choices. They say they're embracing the in between: small things which are often overlooked, which collectively can add up to big changes. So welcome Charles.

Charles Critchell 1:27  

Hi Laura, thanks for having me.

Laura Laker 1:29  

Yeah Nice to have you on. So, you're kind of an unusual, one in terms of media angle because you are an architect. You left your job as an architect in April 2019, and launched Fare City in October that year. A month later you won our first Media Award, your piece titled Burning Bridges, which was published on Fare City's website about the closure of London's Hammersmith Bridge and second, Sharing the Load, is a two parter on non-commercial cargo bike use in London, which was published January 2020 which won our most recent award. And so that was published pre pandemic. Although your site isn't a traditional news site per se, our judges were enamoured with the research you put into the pieces which are journalistic in that you speak to people you tell a story and you do the research to put that story forward so perhaps you can start by telling us a little bit about those pieces how you came up with the ideas and how you approach them. 

Charles Critchell 2:26  

Yeah, sure. I mean, I think it's important to point out that for Fare City we're all about co-creating fairer cities, and as you say by empowering. You know city users to make more reasoned travel choices, and for us cities are really about people, and it's about the story as well the narrative. And I think so for the Hammersmith Bridge piece first of all, when the bridge, initially closed in April 2019, and that was to motorised transport I should point out, so I was walking across the bridge several times a week, as was everyone else. And back in those days when you could go up to people and talk to people on the street, and I was actually walking across and I spoke to a lady and I said sort of said to her, well this is a bit of a drag isn't it you know we're having a walk across the bridge to get to the bus stop on the other side, you know she turned around, she said no, it's fantastic. It's the best part of my day. You know I get to sort of relax unwind after work I can walk across the river, and I really think that got us thinking about how these conversations were going on, and across the bridge, you know, across all sorts of times of the day. And people were sort of engaging with one another conversing with one another. And we sort of wondered then you know, are there broader well being benefits to the closure of the bridge because I think, as has been well established since the bridge closed in April 2019 to motorised vehicles, there was this prevailing narrative that actually this was a fundamentally bad thing, and you know everyone was sort of universally upset about this closure but actually, that wasn't the case. I think what we did then is, as you say we sort of surveyed users on the bridge, and there had been other surveys have been done, I won't name names but they were fairly unrepresentative, and a lot of sort of leading questions such as, what's the worst thing about the closure of the bridge. So, we approached it from a different point of view, where we were trying to be neutral, and trying to be trying to be sort of fair and actually conducting the surveys on the bridge itself over a four day period just to get a flavour of what people were thinking about the bridge, and I guess as importantly, how they would want the bridge opened in the future. Just a few anecdotes before maybe I'll tell you a bit about some other findings but, for instance, there was a young couple that lived on the south side of the bridge, and you know they said that they used to get deliveries every day. And since the you know the closure of the bridge to motorised vehicles, they, they stopped doing that, and they'd started cooking more, and then we had a young boy who actually sort of contradicted his mother, and go ahead to change your answer to the survey which I thought was fantastic. She wanted cars back on the bridge. And he said, you know, what about my asthma. And so, I think, again, I mean, aside from the findings of the survey it's these little anecdotes and these vignettes of city life which kind of come together in that place, and that moment in time on the bridge, which makes you feel that that really is, is this is critical sort of bit of infrastructure and that's what we talk about about trying to make city transport work harder city infrastructure work harder to unlock additional benefits for people,

Laura Laker 5:36  

the closure of the bridge that inspired you to quit your job was it, because I notice it happened in the same month.

Charles Critchell 5:43  

No I don't think so.

Laura Laker 5:48  

I'm just imagining. I love that you you like going up and talking to people, because I also do that and I guess that's one of the joys of being a journalist is that you kind of have an excuse to talk to people and it's a bit old school maybe because so much is online these days, but you do get quite interesting stories from people actually and they can be quite open,

Charles Critchell 6:06  

yeah you're right i think a lot of that stems from training and then qualifying as an architect because when you're at architecture school, part of what you're doing is trying to understand the built environment how people are interacting with streets and public spaces. And I think some of the stuff we used to do in sort of undergrad which, you know, looking back at it now is probably, particularly now as the pandemic would be frowned upon. But I think that was really instructive in sort of making you sort of forcing you to interact with people and really try to understand how other people are experiencing urban space.

Laura Laker 6:42  

That was one of Jan Gehl's, I think it was his wife's criticism of the famous urbanist, that inspired him to and start looking and observing people that was that, I think she's a psychologist or a psychiatrist, and she was saying, Well, the problem with architects is that you don't build for people or you don't think about people, but it really is so important, isn't it and I guess that's where the crossover is with the public realm.

Charles Critchell 7:02  

Yes, sir. I think you're absolutely right and i think only by speaking to people about their lived experience of the built environment. Can you really get a real sort of representative understanding of what people are doing in cities and you know the ways in which cities should be designed for them.

Laura Laker 7:22  

And so, you found that a lot of people basically wanted to keep the bridge open to people walking and cycling yeah

Charles Critchell 7:28  

so I think we have three key findings. The first one is that a greater percentage of those surveyed considered that the closure of the bridge to motorised vehicles had some benefits. So, I mean it's worth pointing out that a lot of the people we spoke to traditionally crossed the bridge using a car. And a lot of these people were telling us that actually, you know that they were recognising the benefits not only for themselves but for the wider community so we're talking about less pollution and less noise and more pleasant experience of crossing a bridge. And as I say some people actually making these positive lifestyle changes, and then I think another one is, as you said is 41% believe that the bridge should be reopened to public transport, cyclists and pedestrians only, which was just a little bit lower than reopening it to everybody. Whereas interestingly young people who sadly I can't classify myself as that anymore, which is a 29 years, and under, so that the bigger percentage of those did actually want a public transport walking and cycling bridge which I find really encouraging. I think finally, this is something, like the red herring we throw out at the end of the survey is 'would you consider, would you want the bridge to be used for instance as a community market one day a month', and 76% of people agree that that was a great idea and I think Back to sort of anecdotes, I mean, I was sort of chasing this hard nosed businessman across the bridge I mean he was answering questions but he was trying to get away at the same time. And so when I said to him What about a market like a communal market on the bridge one day a month and he sort of stopped in his tracks in turned round and I thought oh man now I've really done it, sort of like backing off and he's sort of, you know, beamed into a smile and said "that's a great idea". And then he's just walked on. So, I think. I think part of what we're trying to do is also raise people's awareness of the possibilities of city space. And I think that's really important and just just in terms of the timing of when we set up I think it's worth pointing out that 2019 London had its first citywide car free day as well. And so that was in September. And just, just actually just before burning bridges was, was published, so I do you think there's this appetite amongst not only Londoners but amongst city users more broadly at the moment, which has obviously been compounded with the pandemic in terms of people's appreciation of the need for sort of better urban space, you know, mental health, urban resilience these kinds of things so I think it's I think hopefully things are sort of coming together quite nicely now but obviously there's always opposition to that,

Laura Laker 10:19  

yeah and you will talk later about some more recent research that you've done in this area about younger Londoners. So, that was your 2019 winning piece. The 2021 one you wrote about cargo bikes, it was a two parter on non commercial cargo bikes in London, and the first part was a well maybe you can tell us actually.

Charles Critchell 10:41  

Yeah, sure. So, again, I think it's just about being out and experiencing the city on the streets and public spaces and. So one thing I noticed was that all these kind of, I didn't know they were cargo bikes then they just look like very odd sort of types of cycle, and we're sort of whizzing around and particularly in central London and particularly I noticed, you know, men and women in sort of pink jackets which i'll come on to in a minute. And, yes, I didn't really understand what they were but they seem to be sort of everywhere suddenly and sort of speaking of other people they didn't really realise either so I did a bit of research and I found that these were obviously cargo bikes. But I think through doing some cursory research, two things came out so one was that there was sort of family buying guides in terms of these would be the best cargo bikes for your for your family, for instance, you know, sort of a comparative sort of article or you'd have sort of articles which were looking at commercial use specifically so why cargo bikes were better for deliveries and logistics in big cities. And so, to my mind, there is a definite gap there that no one has yet to make the link between how the trailblazing as it were of the commercial sector could benefit the non commercial sector how these sort of residual gains come across so that was really the guest, the basis for writing Sharing the Load is trying to understand firstly what cargo bikes are used as cargo bikes in London. The second is sort of trying to understand how broader issues of sort of safety regulation infrastructure demand accessibility these kind of things would either help to promote or prevent the uptake of the mode in the non commercial sector,

Laura Laker 12:26  

you kind of split the two pieces up that way don't you? You've got a bit of first person experience so you have a go on one of these bike taxis that people are pink jackets, and that's a cargo bike, and then you do some interviews with people use cargo bikes you do a bit of history and context, because obviously cargo bikes aren't a new thing they've been around for, since the bicycle was invented, almost, and then you go on to talk about the barriers of uptake like you said the fear of danger on the roads, the risk of theft, a lack of parking spaces and also perceptions not being a cyclist were quite interesting ones, people not identifying as cyclist not seeing it as something for them, but quite a lot of the time people just don't really know what cargo bikes are, do they so you kind of explore that a little bit. And then you go on to produce some recommendations for getting Londoners using cargo bikes more which is quite interesting and I guess that's where the kind of journalism crosses over with the perhaps more policy Think Tank side of what you do.

Charles Critchell 13:23  

Yeah, I think, first of all, you know, we felt we needed to split it up into two articles because this is kind of one of those things it's just like a runaway train once you start the research, sometimes it just sort of, you know, gets ahead of you and there's so much to include so we made a conscious decision to sort of split it up and as you say in the first part, sort of tried to identify what cargo bikes are and who uses them and then sort of scrutinise them against these different metrics in the second part again coming back to the human story that's, that's really important so we wanted this firsthand qualitative research, just to sort of understand what people's motivations for using them were and what their aspirations for future use were, I think that yeah in terms of a lot of what you said in terms of culture safety things like that we did find that generally cargo bike users are typically experienced cyclists. And no matter if they're in the communal in the commercial or in the non commercial sector, so I think for us one of the big things is about trying to lower the barriers to cycling, and that is just crucial not only in London and other cities across the UK. If you're going to build a broader and deeper base of experienced cyclists, who may in turn then want to use or consider using a cargo bike, because I think another thing we found was that actually we called it a cargo bike decision making continuum which is essentially sounds a bit sort of long winded but essentially this idea that and this is what a lot of people reported to us is that it could take users years to decide to buy or purchase a cargo bike, and from from the time when they first think about doing so. I guess for us, you know, it's about trying to understand what are the key barriers, which if they can be removed would actually accelerate this process. And I think, as you pointed out one of the key barriers, is a lack of secure on street parking. And this really is inherent with cities because, unlike standard cycles where you could probably carry one up a flight of stairs and put it in your front hall or your front living room. You know the weight of a cargo bike is really prohibitive towards doing that. And I think in terms of parking theft is also closely associated with that. I think that's a real worry and what we found what we're recommending is that actually local authorities need to take the lead on this. I think there has been great work in boroughs recently, I think part of this has come down to sort of the streetspace funding. And so these are sort of COVID-19 measures, which is unleashed additional funding for local councils, I guess the problem with that is, is that a lot of these cycle hangers as they're called, do not actually facilitate or do not actually allow for non standard cycles so not just cargo bikes but recumbent trikes all these other types of cycles so we do think and this is what the evidence is telling us that really local councils should be looking to sort of take a bit more of a lead on this.

Laura Laker 16:27  

I guess it's such a, an enormous financial outlay but it's amazing, it takes so long for someone to go from the point where they're aware of a cargo bike and then they get through various phases perhaps and then they get to the stage where they want to buy one but it's a lot of money. And you, you mentioned in your article about how one of the shops that sells these things. Their first customers were people from Europe where you know they came from countries where this sort of thing is normal and using cargo bikes as normal. So they'd already gone through this process they know that it's okay thing to do, they're safe, it's doable. And then it was only when people started to see others during it and it was sometimes it was like friends with people who have them, that they then started to go to go on to look at them themselves and have a go and one of the things that the shop did was do kind of consultations basically they have one on one sessions with people and they go through the options and let you ride them a little bit like ebikes but kind of thing it's just about understanding them first isn't it and so that was quite interesting, and I do like how people talk about solutions based journalism there's there's a lot of bad news going on, but it's good to see a problem looked at, and then some solutions reached or some suggestions and I guess that that kind of crosses over with. Yeah, as I said before with what you're doing with city. Also, now you are taking this another step on me with my colleagues at the Active Travel Academy, and you're updating the piece to become a paper perhaps you could talk to us about that. 

Charles Critchell 18:00  

So yeah, that's a good question. I think it was important for us to update the research in light of the pandemic and I think one of the key things that pandemic is that it actually demonstrated the enduring value of the cycle as a mode of transport, and that people were turning to it, you know, not to autonomous vehicles or other sort of technological solutions but something as simple as a cycle which is now a 19th century mode of transport us to confront a very, you know 21st century problem. And so firstly that was, that was really positive for us. And in terms of cargo bikes specifically I think pandemic, as well as sort of increasing cycle use increase those using cargo bikes as well.

Laura Laker 18:44  

It sounds like maybe this we're talking about the continuum that maybe the pandemic acted as a catalyst to allow people to skip forward a few steps so maybe they might have mulled something over for a few months, or even years that they've, they've suddenly realised actually. Now it's time for me to start using one of these things.

Charles Critchell 19:02  

I think that's a really good point and, in fact, one of the people we spoke to said that she had been contemplating using a cargo bike. Again, a couple of years and I think for her the pandemic was just that final push, which actually got her kind of over the line, because of obviously the hesitancy of using public transport and not wanting to drive a car. I think another thing which is worth pointing out is we're talking here about purchasing cargo bikes but actually hiring cargo bikes is just as important, if we're going to get more Londoners using them. And actually the trial which this lady had used or the scheme this lady had used was a scheme between pedal my wheels who are a London based cargo bike supplier and Richmond Council, which actually enabled her to get to a hire a cargo bike on a three month trial basis. That's a very low risk. And obviously one of the big things with cargo bikes is they always be cost prohibitive. So, enabling people to access them in more accessible ways. Financial ways is obviously really important and so I think that more schemes like this, definitely need to be rolled out, just to sort of, you know, entice people to consider using cargo bikes, particularly those who may not be comfortable with spending so much money upfront, you know to purchase one.

Laura Laker 20:22  

Yeah, these schemes vary, they've been various of these schemes haven't they, and they've been really successful at helping people to get into to get into kind of cargo bikes and understand what they are and whether they want them, a bit of a try before you buy. So, this is now going to become a paper, and what kind of form is that going to take?

Charles Critchell 20:42  

Yeah, sure. So it's, we're going to try and release it in two ways. So one is with ATA. And that's going to be more an academic paper. We really wanted to work with, the Active Travel Academy. I think obviously winning the two awards with yourselves was great, and I think that the work that you're doing is really important. Secondly, what we want to do is release it as a publication on our own website. So something a little less academic, making it more graphically accessible for people. And I think we're also looking to do is actually move the debate forward a bit on cargo bikes now. So on the one hand, there's still this lack of knowledge perhaps as to what they are, which obviously is building and is increasing and it's really important we keep pushing that and to be able to open up to more and more users on the second hand I think that just to understand cargo bikes through the lens of their commercial value in terms of city logistics is quite limiting and doesn't really do justice to such a versatile mode so what we're also looking to do is run a couple of articles in the lead up to the publication of the paper, which look at say the commercial side specifically, not in total in terms of what the commercial benefits are but actually, who is responsible for a greater uptake who's responsible for actually scaling up commercial cargo by logistics. And secondly, we also looking at the communal value of cargo bikes, which I think is an area which has gone really under the under the radar has really came of age almost with the pandemic. In terms of speaking to a lot of people, and, you know, local communities who weren't necessarily able to get provisions to vulnerable residents, and then early stage of the stages of pandemic did in fact, turn to cargo bikes in many cases, to, to actually deliver these types of services, which, which I think ties into the hyperlocal nature of cargo bikes more fundamentally, and which again looks towards the commercial sector, so I think that there's a really exciting opportunity here to look at other ways in which cargo bikes can be used, and to try and understand their, their use cases, a bit differently, whilst also trying to obviously promote and sort of disseminate their and their use more broadly amongst new users as well.

Laura Laker 23:04  

So by communal use, you mean what?

Charles Critchell 23:06  

So at the beginning of the lockdown. A lot of people actually turned to the cargo bike to help serve local communities, a fellow social enterprise in East London so Hackney based Carry me bikes which is run by Alex Stredwick, she relayed to me that a lot of people came to her actually with the intention of hiring out cargo bikes to help run deliveries to their local communities, which weren't able to sort of access any government aid at that point in time. I think another thing is, the guys I was referring to earlier who whizzing round in pink jacket so that's Pedal Me which is founded by Ben Knowles and Chris Dixon, and actually worked in combination with Lambeth council to deliver I think up to 10,000 packages to vulnerable residents in Lambeth, so they really sort of drew upon their commercial cargo bike acumen, to deliver a sort of a communal service there in combination with the council so I don't think it was just delivering packages, but it was also taking vulnerable residents to and from hospital visits,

Laura Laker 24:08  

so obviously you're our only double winner of the active travel Media Awards. Has it been good for you to be recognised fairly early on I guess in your in your journalistic career. 

Charles Critchell 24:19  

Yeah, I think it's, it's been a bit of a shock. It's been great. I mean, it's, I think the main thing for us is that it proves it we're on the right path in terms of what we're trying to achieve, and the ways in which we're going about it. And I think that it's almost a double edged sword with what's happening, particularly with the pandemic is there's a lot of social media noise. And I think it's about trying to cut through that with high quality and robust research. It's nice that that gets recognised, but obviously as long as that is actually trying to deliver some social impact is, which is something we're keen on achieving as well.

Laura Laker 24:57  

Yeah, you're a bit different too in that they're kind of long form, there's a lot of research that goes into it, and it's a bit of a kind of nod to policy. We started off the Active Travel Media Awards to highlight good practice in the field. Obviously you know there's some great work that goes on out there that doesn't always get recognised and just highlight, best practices and to show that good work is being done, and to give people a bit of a platform. I don't know if you want to say who inspires you in terms of who's writing on active travel.

Charles Critchell 25:30  

Yeah, I think a lot of people are doing a number of important things at the moment I think you've got people like Carlton Reid which writes for Forbes magazine. I always enjoy reading his work and I think it seems to be quite on the money in terms of the point he's making, and a fellow, with a first year when it was Andrea Sandor who lucky enough to meet at the awards last year when we could actually meet in person which seems like quite a luxury doesn't it. But she wrote a really good piece this year about women's cycling and how we need to sort of lower the barriers to get more women cycling So, yeah, doing some really good sort of investigative stuff there. I think even yourself some of the stuff you've done on sort of LTNs for The Guardian, and obviously active travel more broadly, I think, more generally though it's just anyone that's taking the time to write good quality and sort of engaging work, which is representative as well as the things that are going on but usually with a bit of a positive topspin because I think it's very easy to get drawn into the partisanship which, it seems to be residing around active travel at the moment which again has been compounded by the pandemic so people that really are just trying to get on and write good bits of journalism, but doing it from sort of a constructive viewpoint as opposed to a negative or destructive point of view, 

Laura Laker 26:52  

yes I mean so much of what we consider normal has been taken away from us and I think active travel is one area in which we can be, there's a chance to be positive and to look at solutions for society not only during the pandemic but going forward as a society and all of the other problems that we're facing. You know, in terms of air pollution and congestion and all of those problems which definitely haven't disappeared. So you have your own podcast as part of one of the things that you do for Fare City, and you've done some quite interesting interviews from around the world, with different professionals in different cities from Addis Ababa, Auckland, Bogota, Detroit London and Paris, and you and your colleague, Richard Lambert, and there've been some really interesting pieces around that is is that kind of part of your efforts to look more in depth at these problems and to seek out solutions perhaps for some of these issues around transport that we have.

Charles Critchell 27:46  

Yeah, I think that when the pandemic hit I mean we we were thinking anyway as an organisation, how can we, how can we sort of branch out beyond London. I guess first of all because obviously you know the pieces we were done were specifically London centric because of the fact that we sort of reside in London, and we're based in London, but, and I think yeah more broadly when the pandemic hit there it seemed to me to be this sort of oversaturation of written media. And whilst A lot of it was interesting. A lot of people were sort of focusing on what was happening and how cities could look post pandemic. But for us, not enough people were really looking at why these things were happening. So as an example, you know as well documented in Bogota and are able to quickly implement 47 kilometres of emergency cycleways. And people were suggesting you know why could this happen in London, but I think until you actually drill down and try to speak to people who know about these things in terms of explaining this, you may not necessarily find the answer. So for us it was really trying to drill down into these issues in a specific city and sort of looking at how governance geography culture were informing these different things,

Laura Laker 29:03  

The guy from Addis Ababa was absolutely fascinating. In terms of just understanding the kind of reasoning behind what was happening and that kind of context and just really seem to have a really deep understanding of the problems and the context of the city and within Africa and what they were doing and why and it was super interesting to listen to him actually and it was great to hear from someone in the global south.

Charles Critchell 29:31  

Yeah, I think we were very lucky in terms of we managed to get either a practitioner or an academic from a global city from every inhabited continent in the world, which was great because it really gave us a perspective on what was going on and, like you say I think only by sort of like asking the tough questions and going a bit deeper in terms of trying to understand why these things are happening. Were we getting any, any sort of answers and I think that was crystallised in our piece which is connecting continents. And really the thing with that is that we were looking at the different trajectory of the cities. So that was the key thing for us. So, why were certain things happening in cities which were not happening and others, and we put that down to was that the the trajectory that these cities were on so as an example Singapore were able to do quite well with a pandemic in terms of green urban space green infrastructure, and you look at the way that they've been prioritising those things since the 1950s and 60s. On the other hand, the city on the shortest trajectory is Paris and Paris are doing great things. Mayor Hidalgo was constantly in the news in terms of whether it was greening the Champs Elysees or banning cars completely. I think this is because Paris is on this very unique trajectory where they're in fact, aiming for the 2024 Olympics, which again is something which hasn't really been talked about yet, but I think that we picked up in our research so understanding what trajectory cities are on is quite instructive in understanding how they made them respond to the pandemic and subsequent sort of issues

Laura Laker 31:14  

in terms of Fare City itself, we're kind of working on this voluntarily. Am I right?

Charles Critchell 31:23  

I think we're in a position now where we're about to incorporate. I think that's based on the strength of the work we've been doing. Obviously it's nice to be recognised but I think we've been working on things which we feel are important to us and our stakeholders. And I think also, by default doing this we built a good network of like minded people who sort of like to collaborate with. And we actually did a piece with disabled cycling charity Wheels for Wellbeing just before Christmas, which, which was our first sort of paid piece of work so we are looking to do consultancy work, collaborating with like minded organisations but also by default of becoming a social enterprise, accessing grant funding. And so, hopefully it won't always be done on a voluntary basis, and obviously if there are any listeners with deep pockets with an active travel bent feel free to get in touch and I'm sure we can work something.

Laura Laker 32:29  

I mean this is a problem I know this is a problem with journalism, and perhaps it's a problem in the advocacy sector that it's, it kind of ends up being people who have some way of kind of supporting themselves while they work for free and it's quite an interesting one isn't it is obviously doing good work but it's kind of how do we reach out to other people who maybe don't have the resources to work for free and I know that you're talking about having guest blogs from the built environment sector on your on your website at some point maybe you could tell us a bit about that how maybe aspiring journalists or people in those environments can get involved. 

Charles Critchell 33:07  

Yeah, sure. I think that's sort of again fundamental to setting up as social enterprise is that we want to provide a platform for sort of young professionals or early stage professionals to actually share what they know what their experiences of the built environment are, and the sort of knowledge and expertise, which they have or an idea that they want to sort of promote. And I remember when I first moved to London sort of in my mid 20s, I was, you know, I think think like most of the journalists, starting up you know looking for someone to publish your work and just working really hard to try and get that opportunity to get that opening. So I think for us it's important to do that not only to support and try and to potentially nurture people, and who have an idea but also, I guess to honestly to sort of help educate us and help, help us sort of stay in touch with issues from around the country so I hope there are some reciprocal benefits to it.

Laura Laker 34:06  

Will these be paid gigs do you think? I guess no-one is getting paid yet.

Charles Critchell 34:11  

I would like to say yes, that is our intention, I think that, again, there is something in journalism where you're just expected to work for free on the basis of getting the exposure of the publication with sort of, you know, a big magazine or a big public, you know, a big platform but actually yeah we do want to pay people, because it's it's a recognition of the value that they bring. Yeah. And I think if you provide a bit more of an incentive to people as well then they're more likely to probably try, honestly, try harder but you know to actually focus more and produce a better piece of work which is of paramount importance, it's about producing work which is as good as possible really

Laura Laker 34:57  

yeah and about recognising the value of people's expertise or. Yeah, and it can be quite exclusion exclusionary because they say that, you know, with journalism certainly if you're unless you have some way of supporting yourself while you work for free. It's just impossible, you know that's why journalism so kind of white and middle class and from a very small pool of educational establishments. So, yeah, it's an interesting one, but that's good to hear. Yeah, we talked earlier about the kind of difference between generations, on Hammersmith bridge and how they felt that the future of the bridge might look and what they would like to see. And there was a definite kind of age split wasn't there the younger people tended to want to see fewer cars, and you've been doing some further research on that, in terms of generation Z and transport. And so perhaps we could finish by asking you about that and what you've learned and what where Fare City goes next.

Charles Critchell 35:49  

Yeah sure, we've been working with a West London school in Northolt for just over a year now. So first of all, with the year sixes and sevens so 12 and 13 year olds. When we went into the school we sort of discussed with them, potentially why they should consider making more sustainable travel choices. We were ready to do some follow up work with them but obviously COVID intervened. And what we then did is we went back and we worked with their sixth formers. So the school had some priorities which they wanted to try and realise through their collaboration with us and looking at things like career paths, and why students should be more aware of how their travel choices are impacting others. We really did with them we've done this piece of work on generation Z which I'm really confused about because it does suggest that there are reasons to be hopeful. And just to sort of say there's a fallacy that, you know, it's important that we engage with younger people because, obviously, they are the city users of tomorrow. I think that's incorrect. They are the city users of now, today. And, you know, everyone has got a stake in their city and younger people should be consulted upon that because obviously. Yes, you know, they will be using the city more tomorrow but it's just trying to raise that awareness now, and I guess maybe when people are most receptive so I think what we did with them was we did initial survey and, obviously, this was all anonymous and online where they sort of told us about their priorities. They told us the ease and convenience were important to them, as well as the importance of their local areas. And a lot of them quite encouragingly thought that moving around London via public transport in future was was really important. So I think that's a great advert for the importance of public transport, which is obviously, particularly here in London I guess under threat because of the predominantly fare based revenue model, which TfL have to sort of contend with. Which I guess has led to, you know, this upcoming I think it's the end of March, beginning of April, where free travel for under 18s will be sadly cut unless some, some sort of compromise is found, but I think that aside we sort of took the survey findings to construct a webinar. And so what we did is actually a lot of the people we engage with in the connecting continents work, we sort of caught them up and, you know, we asked them to provide a you know a snapshot of what was going on in their different cities countries and cultures, and I think that really resonated with young people who subsequently watched the webinar because I think they saw that, how what they were doing was impacting upon other people in faraway places such as Addis Ababa or southern hemisphere, continents and countries, but also do it. I guess it gave them an insight into how they may then be able to do certain things within their own careers, which they may not have thought possible so yeah I think it could be, you know, obviously, I'm biassed but I think it's a good thing is a great piece of research, and that I think is something we're looking to build in the future that's working with, with other schools and hopefully they will really unlock the value of what we've tried to do. Yeah,

Laura Laker 39:10  

thank you for coming on it's been great. All

Charles Critchell 39:13  

Great, thanks a lot, Laura. Yeah, really enjoyed it.

Laura Laker 39:17  

You've been listening to the Active Travel Podcast. You can find us online our website at We're on most podcast hosts and you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram @active_ata . Let us know you think email us at Thanks for listening. Until next time.

More episodes

View all episodes

  • 2. School Streets

    Dr. Tom Cohen, Reader in Transport at Westminster University and member of the Active Travel Academy interviews Dr. Asa Thomas, who recently completed his PhD research with the Active Travel Academy. Show notes and transcript link available at Show notes by Professor Rachel Aldred and podcast editing by Chris Gregory of Alternative Stories.
  • 1. Accessibility and Urban Design

    Dr. Harrie Larrington-Spencer, Research Fellow at the Active Travel Academy, interviews Professor Aimi Hamraie, who directs the Critical Design Lab, and whose research focuses on disability, accessibility, and urban design. Show notes and transcript link available at Show notes by Professor Rachel Aldred and podcast editing by Chris Gregory of Alternative Stories.
  • 4. Queering Cartographic Methods

    Rachel Aldred, Professor of Transport and Director of the Active Travel Academy, interviews Ellis Fannin, a PhD researcher at the University of Manchester, about their research on queering cartographic methods. Show notes and transcript link available at Thanks to Ellis and to our ATA interns, Rob Coates (who prepared and edited the audio files) and James Stevenson (who corrected the transcript and wrote the show notes).
  • 3. Barriers to Black men cycling in London

    Dulce Pedroso, PhD researcher at the Active Travel Academy, interviews Akwesi Osei of Possible about his research into barriers to Black men cycling in London. Show notes and transcript link available at Thanks to Akwesi and Dulce and to our ATA interns, Rob Coates (who prepared and edited the audio files) and James Stevenson (who corrected the transcript and wrote the show notes).
  • 2. Planning for Trans Futures

    Professor Rachel Aldred, Director of the Active Travel Academy, interviews Matt C. Smith of Brighton University about their research into trans in planning, and trans experiences in the city. Show notes and transcript link available at Thanks to Matt and to our interns, Rob Coates (who prepared and edited the audio files), James Stevenson (who corrected the transcript and wrote the show notes), and Chinaemerem Obiegbu (who helped with the transcript).
  • 1. Neurodiversity in the City

    Professor Rachel Aldred, Director of the Active Travel Academy, interviews Dr. Therese Kenna of University College Cork about her research into experiences of neurodivergence in the city. Show notes and transcript link available at Thanks to Therese and to our interns, Rob Coates (who prepared and edited the audio files) and James Stevenson (who corrected the transcript and wrote the show notes).
  • Still I Ride 2: How women of colour are challenging discourses in and through cycling

    Cycling has always been about more than its health, economic and environmental benefits. The rise of women cyclists coincided with the age of the new, educated and independent woman. The early moral outcry over women’s cycling outfits and alleged damage to their feminine physical features may seem ridiculous today yet cycling continues to be linked to discourses about who can be visible, who can take space, and how.Over the past decades, cycling has been represented as a self-indulgent leisure activity. The media loves portraying cycling as an unsafe annoyance to other road users; something that only middle aged men in lycra engage in and benefit from. To some extent, the cycling culture has done little to change that perception and only very recently has started becoming a little less exclusive.My name is Dulce Pedroso and this project seeks to move beyond the discussion on barriers to cycling to understanding how those who are often not part of the cycling discourses experience and challenge dominant representations of cycling. Thanks to a grant through the Active Travel Academy Justice in and for Active Travel initiative, I was able to get my bike and myself on the train to travel to different parts of the country to ride with and talk with nine women who all identify as a Woman of Colour and, for whom cycling is a big part of their lives.In the previous episode we heard how the women I interviewed got into cycling and the role cycling now plays in their lives. In this second part, Zoe, Vera, Susan, Eden, Mildred and Sidrah reflect on how discourses around cycling interact with what it means to be a woman and a Person of Colour in our society especially when cycling and being visible in public space.We recorded these conversations while riding our bikes in late spring 2021, when the UK was just starting to emerge out of lockdowns. You will hear some traffic noise in the background and the sound quality isn’t always great. Most annoyingly, the technology failed during a couple of rides, so you will not hear everyone I spoke to, but if you are interested in the research and want to find out more, you do so via the Active Travel Academy, or find me on Instagram.I feel privileged to have been able to talk to the women who took part. They are challenging the status quo whether that is as ride leaders, social media influencers, cycling advocates, cycling industry insiders or just as individuals who are encouraging their friends and families to ride more. I hope you enjoy listening to these stories as much I enjoyed recording them!
  • Still I Ride 1: How women of colour are challenging discourses in and through cycling

    So, in a culture, where the car is really dominant, being a cyclist can make it feel like you’re a second class citizen. And if you already feel invisible in society, because of your identity, because of who you are or the way you look, it may seem odd that you would opt for more of these othering experiences by choosing to cycle, especially if you then also don’t see yourself represented in the cycling culture or don’t feel like you’re part of the wider cycling community.But how much do we know about the different experiences of underrepresented groups who do cycle? How much do we know about the experiences of Women of Colour who cycle? And we know that they do – I know we do – as I am one myself. My name is Dulce Pedroso and I live and ride my bike in Bristol. I got a grant through the Active Travel Academy Justice in and for Active Travel initiative for researching this topic for my Masters. So, what I did for my research, I got my bike and myself on the train and traveled to different parts of the country to ride with and talk with m nine women who all identify as a Woman of Colour and, for whom cycling is a big part of their lives.I feel really privileged to have been able to talk to these women who are all really impressive and influential in different ways, whether that is as ride leaders, social media influencers and cycling advocates or cycling industry insiders or just as a friend or family to encourage people to ride more.So, what you are about to hear is the first part of a two-part mini podcast put together from the conversations we had back in May. I recorded these conversations while we were riding our bikes so the sound quality isn’t always great and unfortunately you will not hear everyone I spoke to, but if you are interested in the research and want to find out more, you can find out more via the Active Travel Academy, or find me on Instagram.In this first part you will hear how Sahar, Vera, Mildred, Tina Susan and Sidrah got into cycling and the role cycling now plays in their lives. You’ll hear about the impact of cycle friendly infrastructure, different community projects and initiatives, cycling clubs and family, friends and partners have had on their cycling. You can also start to get a sense of the way cycling has been represented in the mainstream as largely masculine, often White and middle class, sporty activity which may make it trickier to those who don’t see themselves in that image to identify as a cyclist. But I hope you will also take away the positivity and joy in these conversations and I love how these women are talking about how cycling has given them confidence and mental resilience and voice.I really enjoyed recording these conversations and I hope that you enjoy listening to them.
  • 2. Harrie Larrington-Spencer talks accessible cycling with Professor Rachel Aldred

    Professor Aldred talks to Harriet Larrington-Spencer, a researcher at Healthy Active Cities at the University of Salford. Harriet, or Harrie, developed an interest in active travel after experiencing cycling in Copenhagen and the Netherlands, and after losing the use of her left arm following a collision with a driver. Harrie discovered that while a tricycle was far easier for her to use, the physical barriers and chicanes in place on many of Britain’s cycleways make the use of three wheels challenging. Harrie talks about the challenges such infrastructure poses for non-standard cycle users, about other barriers to wider uptake, such as cost, what inclusive active travel would look like, and what research she would conduct, if money were no object. And, of course, about cycling with her dog, Frida. Healthy Active Cities is a research group bringing together researchers from the University of Salford, as well as practitioners and policymakers to discuss issues in sustainable transport. You can find out more about their work here: and welcome back to the Active Travel Podcast, brought to you by the Active Travel Academy, and to season two. We had a little break over Autumn, and we’ve all been busy working on lots of different projects, but we’re delighted to finally bring you the second episode – and we hope to have more in the weeks to come. But without further ado, let’s hand over to Professor Rachel Aldred, Active Travel Academy founder, and our guest.So I'm really happy to be here for an episode of the active travel podcast with Harriet Larrington-Spencer, who is a researcher at Healthy Active Cities at the University of Salford. So hi, Harrie, good to have you here. 00:11Hi, Rachel, thank you for having me.00:14Great. So one of the things I wanted to start with is really about how you got into this how you got into researching active travel, because one of the great things about active travel is that it's people from a whole range of different backgrounds in the field in terms of disciplinary backgrounds. So can you tell me how you got into it?00:32Yeah, it's so my academic background is originally not active travel, I come from a geography background. So my bachelor's is in geography. And then I moved to the Netherlands to do my master's, which was in water management and irrigation. So very different from active travel. And whilst I was there, and I did my Erasmus as part of my masters in Copenhagen, just I went from kind of cycling for, for recreation and, and a bit of sport to cycling every day, when you arrive at university as an international student in the Netherlands, they tell you no bike, no life. So you kind of the first thing, the first thing they give you is a list of all the secondhand places to buy a bike. And then from that moment, cycling just became my natural form of transportation. And when I saw then I started my PhD. Back in the UK, in Manchester, I was cycling everyday for transportation, and I got hit by a car. And then I had to start changing the type of cycling. So whilst I was cycling for transportation, I was also doing cycling for sport. But I had to kind of start working out how to cycle for transportation in a way that I could do, because the the car damaged my left arm, so it doesn't work, and my hand doesn't work anymore. So it became How could I use a two wheel bike. So I started doing doing that. And even on two wheels, I found quite a lot of barriers to cycling, and doing my everyday journeys that I just hadn't considered before. And then more recently, to make it a lot easier for myself, I have a trike, and so I can do my shopping and carry my dog more easily. And the barriers that were difficult to negotiate on a on a bike have become impossible to negotiate on a trike. And so it started from there really, and and thinking about active travelling that everybody has a has a right basically, it's kind of the right to the city is that everyone should be able to move actively around their local neighbourhood, and how to enable that. 02:43Wow,Wow, thank you now I am going to pick up on different bits of that. But just to go back to the Netherlands experience. So when you went to the Netherlands, had you been cycling much before in this country? Were you completely new to it?02:55No, so I wasn't completely new I grew up in the middle of in the kind of the middle of nowhere in the countryside. So to get to see friends it was always cycling. But also, it was cycling through farmland and fields and or very small country lanes. And it was never really it wasn't an everyday thing. So to actually get anywhere, we had no bus service, you had to learn to drive if you wanted to get anywhere independently and before kind of 17,18 cycling offered that but it wasn't particularly viable to get very far. 03:39Yeah, I know I that sounds kind of familiar. And when you came back to Manchester after the or you came to Manchester after the Netherlands, how was it suddenly cycling in Manchester after having cycled in the Netherlands?03:50It’s just a complete world away. It's I think even if you remove the infrastructure from the UK from kind of that equation, the infrastructure makes a difference. But it’s also that I think everyone in the Netherlands who drives is also a cyclist. So it's, it's Yeah, the infrastructure is not there. And then also cyclists are not in the minds of drivers, either. So when I got hit by a car it was because the driver overtook me and turned left because they didn't even and it was across the segregated cycle lane as well. So it's that they didn't even think that they had to kind of consider that there might be a cyclist on the cycle lane and yeah, completely different.04:39Yeah, it just highlights the need for the infrastructure but also the need for the cultural change behaviour change as well at the same time. And then you were talking about how you cycling as a disabled cyclist using a two wheeler and then using a trike was was different. Could you say a little bit more about that and about some of the barriers that you experienced there.05:00With, with two wheels, I can I can do it and I can I can cycle in, it's fine. But moving the handlebars is quite difficult picking up my bike is difficult. So the probably the biggest barrier is if you are using shared paths and then there's barriers on the shared path. So you've got, A frames are the worst, but there's also chicanes. So I think most of you probably know what chicanes are, but kind of small fences to slow you down. So it just started with the two wheels, you kind of you can negotiate it, but it takes time and it takes energy and I can't really lift my bike and it causes pain when I do it. And then when you get to three wheels, because the cycle is longer and it's wider, you literally cannot like you can't get it past A frames, and sometimes you can get it past chicanes but to do that, my husband has to kind of pick up the trike and negotiate it around. I can't do that at all by myself. So it just it means that that certain cycle, cycling routes are completely off limits to me. And they're often the cycle routes that are the nicest ones, because they're completely away from cars and roads.06:13And why why do you think this kind of this kind of thing exists? Why given that, you know, potentially it's not in line with equality legislation?06:21So the kind of technical reason that they're there is to prevent motorcycles and and anti-social behaviour on cycle routes. Often, it's part of the planning permission to get the route and the police have to if a route is going to be off road, then the police have to agree to it as well. And the police's kind of standard response is an A frame. And some residents also want A frames as well, because there's, I think there's often a fear of this kind of antisocial behaviour from motorcycles, not necessarily that it's going to happen. So, yeah, and it's and now, kind of, the more I get into it, the more I struggle, because I think kind of maybe a few years ago, it was that councils wouldn't know about the Equality Act and kind of the what, what their responsibilities are to disabled cyclists. But more and more, I'm seeing councils saying things like, Oh, we've looked at LTN 1/20 [Local Transport Note 1/20 – cycle infrastructure design guidance], which very specifically says, Don't use A frames, don't use chicanes, and the council's will recognise that, that they should not be using those and they shouldn't be implementing those. And that by implementing those, they're excluding disabled cyclists. But at the same time, they kind of say, we're doing it anyway. And we've got no other way to manage motorcyclists. So this is what we'll do.07:53Yeah, so that's, they'll just probably pick up on the LTN 1/20, the new cycle infrastructure design guidance. So that's seen some improvements, but obviously, isn't necessarily feeding through into practice. And does it highlight the extent to which things need to be aligned for things to change? If the police, you know, you don't necessarily just need transport just use to change in transport planning, but also the police and so on as well.08:15Yeah, it definitely needs to be a much more joined up approach. And even now, in in Stockport, we're seeing that there are routes that aren’t accessible. So if you look at LTN 1/20, they say that the ideal route be at least spaced at 1.5 metres. And so in Stockport, they're taking cycle routes and walking routes that have this spacing already. And they're putting chicanes on them. And I've just saw a proposal yesterday where they're asking for an A frame barrier. So yeah, there's there needs to be working with police and with residents and with disabled people, as well. But to me, it shouldn't be the kind of the equality of access should be the centre point. And it's what should we be do? What can we do to achieve that rather, than kind of the restricting of motorcycles being being the point where where they start design?09:11Yeah, yeah. So it's kind of trying to restrict a minority of problematic users of one mode, that's maybe not even actually the case. It's something that's feared rather than trying to ensure inclusive access for for walking cycling, which is meant to be something that's being encouraged.09:25Yeah, exactly. And the more people you have using a route legitimately, the less attractive it will be to anyone on a motorcycle if, if you think that you're going to access that route, because it's kind of an empty space that you can whisper on your bike. It's much less attractive. If it's full of everybody on trikes bikes with push chairs walking, it's, it's very different.09:50Great, and that sort of brings up another topic, which is around inclusivity of active travel. So could you maybe sort of tell us a little bit about what active travel, how inclusive active travel is or what what needs to change.10:04I think active travel is getting much more inclusive, I see a lot of people who are non-disabled, recognising the barriers that disabled people have to active travel, I think at kind of a grassroots level, especially, it's happening more with sport than with active travel is that is kind of getting disabled people more involved, recognising the barriers that disabled people have. I think in active travel, it would really help if design centred disabled people, because anything designed for disabled people is is going to be good for everybody. So with cycling, there's so there is a lot of barriers for disabled people, anyone who wants to use a non standard cycle, there's not only the infrastructural barriers, and you, you know they're there. So it's kind of like why would you invest in something if the routes that you want to go on with your family or your friends, you can't get on. And then on top of that, you have the you have the cost of the equipment. So a non standard cycle is 1000s and 1000s of pounds. And then on top of that you have the insurance of it, you have to have the secure storage to meet the insurance requirements. And then you also need to know that when you cycle somewhere there will be a secure place to lock your site as well. So I found with my trike, I can't, I can't even use the Sheffield stand without taking up multiple spaces on the Sheffield stands. And I don't want to block other people from being able to be able to park their cycles. So there's kind of there's all these factors that have to be accounted for. And it's the same with with walking, with using a wheelchair that so much of the urban environment isn't isn't suitable for just independently using your wheelchair to get to your to your local area, whether there's no pavement drops, if there's pavement parking, parks that don't have accessible entrances to them. It's it when and when you start noticing it and I think this has happened a lot with non-disabled people as well when disabled people who who are working in active travel and are advocates within it have started pointing it out is that once you start seeing it, you can't stop seeing it and and it's just it defies belief really, that you would have a park that not everybody can connect thiswill be because of barriers at the gates because of steps.12:33Yes. So very similar things to cycle paths is that you have kind of the chicane entrances into the park, which make it quite difficult, especially if you're on something more recumbent. If you're on a hand cycle, for example. So you're lower down, and you'll have a longer base. Yeah, even wheelchairs, I think sometimes struggled to go through the these spaces unless it's a wide open gate.13:00And do you think that's starting to change in planning at all? I mean, if advocates are noticing it are planners noticing it, are things getting better.13:07I think that things are changing. So LTN 1/20 was an a massive win for inclusive cycling and that you can you read through that document and you see the advocacy work of Wheels for Wellbeing in there, and how powerfully and positively they've impacted the world of inclusive cycling, in terms of planning from councils. In Greater Manchester, I feel like there's much more awareness of it, but there's a real struggle to start making those changes for whatever reason. And I, I do think there needs to be a bit of bravery that I can understand that some of these are quite big changes. To say we're not going to restrict access is a big change to how kind of urban planning has been done. But I've also seen some really positive things. So Manchester highways has recently created an access group but that's because it's that has a lot of disabled people with a lot of different kind of experiences and skills. And they are hopefully going to listen to those views when when they're implementing active travel projects. But yeah, it's kind of a time will tell.14:23You were mentioning about Manchester highways and maybe it's time to say something about the Greater Manchester context because Greater Manchester is I think it's something like 2.7 million people across the urban area. So yeah, large urban area, metropolitan area, different authorities and so on different levels of planning. So how does that work in terms of active travel? How is it structured and you know, is it different authorities in charge of different bits and so on?14:50Yeah, so different authorities will be in charge of their own area. I think we then have the Bee networks for for walking and cycling with Chris Boardman who is the walking and cycling Commissioner. So this is trying to join those up a bit and have a more integrated approach to walking and cycling. It's a struggle because for different councils have different approaches and different histories, I mean, you can definitely see in Salford at the moment they've, they're really progressing with their walking and cycling, working to make things much more inclusive. So they've on one of the big walking and cycling trails, they've just been removing barriers and replacing them with bollards that are 1.5 metres apart and celebrating that as well on social media recognising that it's, it's a really positive thing to be doing, and showing that as a positive example to councils in Greater Manchester. And I think having that kind of the overall Bee network, having committed to having an inclusive approach, they have the the 12 year old cycling is the body around which the infrastructure has been built. Personally, I think the 12 year old should be on a trike. But but it's kind of getting there. And they've they've said no barriers, although you see that being put into practice quite differently, but there is pushback against it. And also, in Greater Manchester, we have Walk Ride, which is a community-based organisation. So there's the central body. And then there's all different smaller groups of people who are really interested in walking and cycling. And you see such fantastic work within those smaller groups that they have really good connections with their councils and the walking and cycling forums. And they're, they're putting a lot of pressure onto the councillors to make sure that everything done is thinking about everyone who who wants to use those, the walking and cycling infrastructure that's being built. And it's just really nice to see kind of everybody committed to making things inclusive, because often, there's a lot of what has to be done. And it often falls onto the shoulders of disabled people to do that labour. So it's nice to not always have to be the one that is pointing out the issues and following up with councillors and councils.17:15And do you think that's kind of important as well that you have? Because that's quite distinctive that you have the sort of walking and cycling advocates together in the same in the same advocacy group? Does that make a big difference?17:26Yeah, I think it's fantastic. I think the speed with which, with which Walk Ride GM and the smaller local groups have grown over the past couple of years, really demonstrates kind of the local appetite for walking and cycling. And the skills in those groups that has developed as well is amazing. So for some people, it's that they they work within walking and cycling design or infrastructure, behaviour change within local councils, and they have those skills from their jobs and from their training. But for some people there, they're kind of new to it, and learning and reading all of this all of the documents and policies that are being produced and it's just fantastic for people being able to hold the councillors to to their word basically. And to the point where people if something's installed, and it doesn't look right, or I pointed out something at the weekend, someone was there measuring it with a tape measure to check out whether the distance between the chicanes meets with the accessibility, design guidelines. Yeah, it’s really cool.18:38Returning to the barriers side of things, we talked quite a bit about the physical barriers, but you talked earlier also about the sort of cost and linked with that the storage that you don't want to store something that's expensive, it might get, you know, if it's not secure, it might get stolen, do you think more needs to be done to improve access, you know, availability, affordability of adaptive cycles, ie bikes and trikes and so on?18:59Yeah, definitely. And there's, I think part of it is that if we are moving towards a modal shift, then having these products because they are quite a rare thing. So if you're having to import them, and there's very few being imported, then they're going to be higher cost. So there's kind of one aspect is the more people we have doing it then hopefully a reduction in cost, but they kind of, they are specialist, so they're going to be more expensive than a standard two wheel cycle. So there's some really great schemes going on. So Wheels for Wellbeing have one scheme in London, which is looking at loaning people non-standard cycles, and really helping people choose cycles that are appropriate for them. And and being able to do a loan scheme that can then turn into ownership if they're interested in it. And also, Cycling Projects has a similar thing in West Midlands and we're setting up a trike library in in Manchester and then hopefully that will if people will get a chance to experience trikes, because you, if if they're rare, and you don't get a chance to have a go on them, you're not going to splash out 2000 pounds if you don't, if you don't know how it's going to fit in your life that you really, you need to start doing those everyday journeys, you need to have a go at taking your trike to the, to the shop to get milk and to work. Yeah, and have that that space to build it up and build up over time and see whether it works. So I think with the trike library that we've raised money for, as part of Walk Ride in Manchester, we're going to hopefully loan out cycles for three months at a time maybe more and and help people with journey planning, with ride buddying, and all of those smaller parts to get people into it. The storage, the storage is is a real issue. And it also comes into into policing as well and, and monitoring. And if you I think bike crime is is very low on the police agenda at the moment, because there's not that much funding to police. So it's working out ways to do that. And there is this kind of on on road storage that we've seen in Waltham Forest, and you can get adapted versions of that. So there's options that we just need to keep pushing for and and ensuring that when we're thinking about those options, so in in Greater Manchester, there is there is some of I think in Salford there's some of these on streets cycle hangers, but for people to push for ones that can have non-standard cycles as well, when they're kind of being brought up in that local area.21:32Do you think there's potentially a role for a more universal scheme as well? Because one of the things, one of the criticisms that's been made of the cycle to work scheme is that, you know, certainly you have to have an employer that's opted in it excludes anybody who's not in employment. So a lot of older people, proportionally more disabled people and so on. Do you think we kind of need a more universal access to cycling scheme?21:53Yeah, we definitely do at the moment, it's kind of it falls on the the charity sector to be implementing it and their capacity to implement it is based upon their resources and always scraping the money together to be able to do it. And it's really frustrating when it's something that would help so many people. Yeah, I mean, a universal scheme would be amazing. I tried to you can, there's ways to do it through kind of access to work. But it's always there's always kind of caveats within it. And it's so that you just have to keep arguing for it. So most ability is the obvious way to do it. And there are mobility aids that you access through Motability, so to have that as as a way to do it. And also in the Netherlands, they have very similar schemes where disabled people can have access to active travel equipment. Yeah, and it's it's at a time when I think people are really recognising that disabled people want to be more active, the benefits the public health benefits of disabled people being more active are huge and organisations like great, like, Sport England, as we come out of the pandemic are centralising disable people within within their programmes, and they want to disproportionately invest in disabled people. So I think it is a really good time to start thinking about how to make these how to make access to to non-standard cycles and adaptive cycles, kind of a universal scheme.23:21Cool. And what would if you were thinking about, you know, the your priorities for getting most disabled people cycling, what would you What would you prioritise? What would you think would be the most important thing?23:36One would be the access to the cycles. Two would be working out connected routes within cities. So in Greater Manchester, we have the Bee networks, but we need to look at how the Bee networks connect and with the existing infrastructure that we already have, and how to make that infrastructure barrier free and accessible. Another one would be looking at cycles as mobility aids in in Greater Manchester, for example, people aren't allowed to take cycles onto the trams, which really inhibits multimodal journeys. So you can't you couldn't cycle from, I don't know Sale into Manchester City Centre as a disabled person to work and then think actually, I'm too tired to cycle home let me take my let me take my cycle on the tram. So because you can't do that, then you're, you're then making it a less viable option because you can't do those first and last, or you Yeah, you can't do those parts you need by public transport. So and also to be able to use the pedestrian areas if you need it to be able to put your shopping onto your bike or trike close to the shops and, and having the storage for it as well. And it doesn't I mean for shopping, it doesn't have to be the super-secure sheltered storage. It's just having storage solutions that are well spaced that can that you can use with a trike and have space to not only put your trike, but you have to think about how people are getting off and on. So you need to have that space between the stands.25:16Well, one question I was going to ask was on the research theme was getting obviously this is an under researched area if what would your sort of fantasy research project be if you had a 2 million pound research budget or whatever, you know, imagine? Imagine the zeros what what would your research programme be looking at inclusive cycling, eco inclusive active travel?25:37So for I think inclusive active travel, I think it would be fascinating to do a community mapping project where you work with disabled people's organisations, and you have disabled people map their, their everyday journeys that they do, either by whatever mode of transport they're doing, and then work with people to to look at how active travel can replace non active travel journeys basically. So and to work on the very close ones, so going to places for for small amounts of shopping, going to visit your children going to visit your parents going to the park, taking the kids to school, those journeys, but looking really specifically at the different types of challenges that people have with those. And working out how to then use that to, to create kind of more local regeneration. Because Yeah, because you're not going to get active travel if people physically can't use that their local environment. And and think about how to prioritise those. So that's one aspect. And another aspect I'm really interested in is shared space in in urban centres, because it is a really it's a very aesthetically pleasing thing to have, I think shared space. But obviously, there's a lot of challenges that it offers and conflicting challenges that it has for for different groups of people. So for visually impaired people in particular shared space is quite a challenging thing to have in it can create an environment that that whilst statistically, it's probably very unlikely that you're going to get hit by a bike, it doesn't stop the environment being hostile. So thinking about the types of behaviour within shared spaces and and how to kind of move cohesion both move cohesively and behave in cohesive ways of in the shared space. But also what type of infrastructures within the shared space, enable that that type of behaviour. So kind of a two way approach to that.27:39And actually just thinking about that in terms of the infrastructure and sharing infrastructures, are there good examples? We've talked quite a bit about the barriers and some of the problems, can you think of good examples of environments that work well for inclusive active travel and either in Greater Manchester or somewhere else, and why why it's good.27:59We have a couple of bits now in Greater Manchester, it’s difficult, because actually one of the best places for kind of walking and cycling in Greater Manchester is Oxford Road. So and it is a really, really good piece of infrastructure, but the cycle track is just not quite wide enough. So I can't actually use it on the trike. But normally, I would say that there is a few bits of segregated cycle lanes that are kind of four metres wide, and have space for bi directional cycling flow. So I mean, these are perfect. But that's quite a short stretch, I'm trying to think of something. I think low traffic neighbourhoods, for example, have a real opportunity for for inclusive active travel, they don't have the segregated cycle lanes, obviously, but by reducing the cars using the roads, there is that space for any type of cycle. There's space for wheelchairs and mobility scooters. I think the the challenge with low traffic neighbourhoods is that it's not you don't automatically make them inclusive by filtering the cars from them and that the the existing infrastructures within them already can still pose challenges. So I think speed bumps is quite a good example that if you are non-disabled and walking or cycling, a speed bump isn't going to bother you. But if you're on a recumbent cycle, the speed bumps are not very pleasant at all. And the same with pavement drops as well.And there's a lot of the the issues around the built environment. So some of those things around narrow bike lanes or narrow footways and so on. 29:29So is a lot of that to do with accommodating motor traffic and then sort of people on foot, people on bikes that have had to fight it out for what's left.29:47Yeah, exactly. And you see a lot of space for cycling always seems to be reallocating space away from pedestrians. So the weekend I visited a new proposed walking and cycling route through Ancoats well from New Islington to Ancoats along a really really nice marina that's full of people walking, it's kind of there's a few different bakeries, it's a really nice space. And in this area there's not there's not that many open spaces. And instead of putting a segregated cycleway on the main road, which has five lanes of traffic, and has recently had 10 million pounds spent on its upgrade, they are trying to Manchester council is trying to put the walking and cycling route, which is a is a major league route. So it is specifically for commuting through this very pedestrian recreational, kind of sitting and being space, rather than then taking that space away from cars. And by doing that, you automatically kind of put pedestrians and cyclists at odds with each other both in terms of the space itself, but also within this wider space of kind of what a city is and who is in a city where people are supposed to be in the city. And it shouldn't be like that if we really want to have modal shift we need to start reallocating space away from cars and a lot of time if you do anything like that, then you get a lot of uproar from drivers. But there's there's very little discussion about kind of taking that space away from pedestrians and I think that's Yeah, it's often pedestrians who do suffer within that.31:28In terms of the the Greater Manchester context as well. What would you say in the next five years? Do you think things will be different in five years what hopefully what what might have changed around sort of inclusive active travel?31:42I would really like to see more people on non-standard cycles. I've definitely noticed that since I started getting since I have been cycling on a trike. I've had a lot more people on social media, for example, saying, I've never even considered a trike as an option. I thought trikes were for old people, and people saying that they're considering one as well now. And that's really nice, because it shows that you need to see people doing something for you to start considering that it's an option for yourself as well. So I think that's one aspect that if we get more people cycling, and more disabled people cycling, then hopefully it will be kind of it will build. So that's one aspect, I think another aspect is is the access to inclusive cycles. And that's something that needs to be worked on. Another one is with the Bee networks, is that we just need to keep the momentum and the energy of holding councils to account to to ensure that when things are being implemented, they're being implemented inclusively and to LTN 1/20. In it, it helps so much to have that design guidance, really, because you can just keep sending it and saying, you know, this is this is what this is what needs to happen. I think more widely, we need more than just kind of the Bee networks, we need to be looking at local journeys and how to enable those local journeys. And to maybe move I move a bit away from from focusing on commuting journeys is Yeah, and it's looking at the everyday and I think children's journeys as well as a really nice way to do that. Because they're going to school and back. That's two journeys a day. But then obviously, you need to start looking at the wider practices around that because it's hard sometimes for parents to be able to take their children to school. So we need to have the safe infrastructure for that. But it Yeah, to have this kind of joined up approach where there's the policy, there's the projects, there's the infrastructure.33:53So earlier you were mentioning cycling as well with with your dog, who's become something of a star on social media. Could you say something about your dog?34:00Yes, so we got Frida we got her very luckily at the start of the just before the start of the first lockdown. I just I had a bit of trouble at first after my accident. So kind of I'd always been doing cycling for for everyday cycling, cycling since living in the Netherlands, but also I used to do a lot of touring, cycling and sports cycling. And I was really struggling with not being able to do those anymore. And so it's just trying to find ways to enjoy a different type of everyday life. And I've always wanted a dog and we'd always be putting it off saying you know, we'll wait until we live in a house with a big garden and then just finally was really fed up and bought. Let's just do it and she'll be a good excuse to kind of go out the weekends and then because we don't have a car and Cycling is our primary form of transport from the second day we had her we started training, training her I'm not sure that's the right word, but we kind of put her in a backpack and put her on the bike and fed her lots of treats. And she just, she just loves it. She's, she's very attention seeking, which is amazing. So she'll be, she'll be like, sitting in in the bucket of the cargo trike and she'll be quite chilled out and she'll hear people in the distance and she'll suddenly pop up to give them a show, I think. And I think people really like it. They, I, I'm very, I'm very shy and I, I find it quite embarrassing, but it is really nice to cycle past people and see their really positive reaction. And I think it draws attention cycling as well because normally it's quite like a fast someone will just go past you but you can't really notice if and often I carry my husband as well in the front bucket of my of my cargo trike. So it's quite obvious when we get when we're going past and Frida’s at the front. So, yeah, yes. And, well, funnily enough as well. I haven't had any close passes on the trike since cycling with Frida ever. So I think that's, I mean, there's something to say there about how people value dogs over over human beings as well. But yeah, really, she loves it, she just sits in the bucket with her goggles. And the goggles is because we started using the cargo trike because it's a bit lower down, I was worried about stones flicking up into her eyes. But she takes it all in her stride. And she she's always excited. I think it's because we are, we kind of started building in having trips, we will do our shopping. But it's about more than doing shopping. It's about going for a nice cycle along nice routes, and stopping at a park where we can throw tennis balls for her and, you know, come back via a nice way to have coffee. So it's kind of it's trying to make, because I've been I've just really loved cycling, so it's making cycling my hobby, but in a in a different way and a more everyday way. So Friday is a really important part of that. But yeah, I mean, I changed my I changed my Twitter handle to Tricycle Mayor. And then some someone said to me that actually it was Friday that was the Tricycle Mayor, and now I've realised that they they are correct. 37:32Everybody loves dogs on bikes, I think my popular tweet ever was just a picture of somebody with three dogs in her cargo bike.37:37Yeah, exactly. They're just they are a people pleaser.37:41Excellent. No, that does link back nicely into the question that I've just remembered. I was going to ask you, which was when you were talking about sort of local trips? So there's been a lot of talk recently about the well, it varies. Sometimes it's the 15 minutes city, sometimes it's the 20 minute neighbourhood, this kind of focus on things being local, do you think that that's useful? those concepts are kind of useful as well?38:01I do. I really like them, I think that we need to, I prefer the 20 minute neighbourhood just in terms of people's speeds. And I, I, I hope that kind of from people spending a lot more time in their local areas as well during COVID. And locked down that perhaps people see the value in that as well. And in my research at the moment, and just talking about people about what they've been doing during lockdown and how they've been using their local neighbourhoods, it's really nice to hear how people know their local neighbourhoods a lot better. And spending a lot more time and getting to know all of the different roads and using local shops and local places to go and get a coffee when they go and walk. And I yeah, I mean, for us it comes into the same kind of having, trying to make cycling and doing these everyday activities part of the hobby. So we're starting to use a local refill shop, for example, and cut that part off of off of supermarket shopping. And it does, it's having the time to do that as well. So there is a there's a time element that you have to have kind of that disposable time to be able to go there. So I'm we're looking at how to do all of our shopping locally, and what we can do plastic free.Thanks so much Harrie, that was a really great chat and I look forward to seeing what happens with you next with your research with Greater Manchester. You've been listening to the active travel podcast. You can find us online on our website at, we are most podcasting hosts and you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at @active_ata. Let us know what you think, drop us a tweet or an email at Thanks for listening. Until next time.