James Hurman, author of Future Demand and co-founder of Tracksuit, joins That’s What I Call Marketing to explain how brand building creates future demand, how performance marketing converts current demand and why marketers need both to drive sustainable growth. This episode offers a practical way to understand how advertising really works, how to build the internal case for brand investment and how marketers can move an organisation beyond a performance-only mindset without betting everything on one dramatic change.
In this episode, we cover:
– Why James Hurman rewrote Future Demand specifically for marketers
– The relationship between brand building, future demand and performance marketing
– Why advertising rarely causes an immediate sale but can help a brand win a greater share of future sales
– How Instacart CMO Laura Jones “marched up the funnel” from measurable performance activity to the Olympics and the Super Bowl
– How Telstra tested a 50:50 brand and performance split in Adelaide and recorded a 14% improvement against the rest of Australia
– How marketers can use experiments, geographic holdouts and better measurement to demonstrate incrementality
– Why CEOs, CFOs and marketers often want the same commercial outcome but describe marketing investment in very different language
– What AI, agentic shopping, AEO and GEO could change — and why the fundamentals of markets, brands and human decision-making still matter
James challenges the traditional idea that advertising works by persuading somebody to buy immediately. Instead, he describes a two-stage process: brand advertising creates familiarity and positive bias among people who are not yet in the market, while performance activity helps convert that existing bias when they are ready to buy.
He also shares practical examples of how marketers can earn confidence gradually, measure brand investment more rigorously and communicate its commercial value to non-marketing stakeholders.
That’s What I Call Marketing is the podcast for marketers who care about brand, B2B, creativity, effectiveness and the future of the profession.
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Find more episodes at: https://www.thatswhaticallmarketing.com
CHAPTERS
03:47 Exploring what a marketing book can be
05:40 Why James rewrote Future Demand
07:39 Creating future demand and converting current demand
08:29 Laura Jones and Instacart’s four-year brand journey
11:03 How Instacart “marched up the funnel”
12:00 Telstra’s geographic holdout test in Adelaide
14:16 Making marketing science easier to understand
16:11 The wrong mental model for advertising
17:44 How advertising creates and converts demand
19:06 Is advertising really a weak force?
20:07 Why the evidence has not changed every organisation
21:43 Winning support from non-marketing stakeholders
23:38 Creating a shared language with CFOs
25:18 Why James remains invested in solving this problem
26:56 How marketing cultures differ across markets
29:53 Better marketing measurement and experimentation
31:27 Using AI to learn and improve marketing capability
34:14 How AI is affecting businesses and marketing
37:21 Will agentic shopping change consumer behaviour?
39:58 Familiarity, emotion and why people choose brands
40:58 What McDonald’s “brand love” metric predicts
42:19 Tracksuit University and the language of the boardroom
44:25 Where to find Future Demand
ABOUT JAMES HURMAN
James Hurman is the author of Future Demand and The Case for Creativity. He is a co-founder of Tracksuit and founding partner of innovation studio Previously Unavailable. His work focuses on marketing effectiveness, creativity, brand building and helping businesses understand how marketing contributes to long-term commercial growth.
Explore Future Demand: https://future-demand.com
Learn more about Tracksuit: https://www.gotracksuit.com
Visit Tracksuit University: https://university.gotracksuit.com
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